Astronomical Binoculars, anyone?

[Ozz]

Hi Everyone!

I've been enjoying my new binoculars (even started doing a bit of bird watching! Happened upon a hummingbird the other day and I'm addicted!)

Now, I've wanted to purchase a telescope for quite some time...but, for now, I think I'd like something that would have various uses...so I was thinking of a relatively inexpensive spotting scope (since they have the potential for fairly decent magnification, and large objective lenses)...but, I'm wondering about some of the "big mutha" binoculars! I've seen 15x70's all the way up to 25x100s in a price range that would be "do-able" for me ($300ish).....

Does anyone have anything like this or has anyone used them? What are your opinions? Thoughts? Observations?(no pun intended!)

Thanks!

[Curtis Croulet]

Most of the cheap, big binoculars that I've tried suffer from poor eye-relief and, usually, poor collimation. Astro-Physics (yeah, the guys who make the hyper-expensive refractors that you have to wait years to get) have introduced 10.5x70 and 15x70 binox, and the prices on their website are only $375 and $385, respectively. A friend owns one of these (I forget which), and I thought it was better than others that I've seen in this same price area. I could see the entire field while wearing glasses.

You may be disappointed by using a cheap spotting scope for astronomy. At low power it may be OK, but at the high end of its zoom range (most cheap scopes have a non-interchangeable zoom eyepiece) you'll see large amounts of chromatic aberration and a generally soft image. Sorry to be so negative. My Swarovski ATS 65 HD scope does OK for astronomy within the capability of the available eyepieces -- but it's not a cheap scope. I bought a used TV-85 off Astromart, and it's so good, I haven't done any further astro viewing with the Swaro. I have larger scopes, of course (up to 12.5-inch), but there are times when I just want to look at the Moon or Jupiter, and the TV-85 is quick to set up. The star images are so good, I often like to look at them merely to admire the optical quality. Under a very dark sky, the TV-85 does better than you might expect with faint fuzzies. It'll pull in galaxies as faint as mag 12.

[ksbird/foxranch]

In my opinion the best combination of quality spotting scope and reasonable astronomical scope is the Celestron C-5 or something similar. I actually have a TV 85 and I find the magnification insufficient as a scope for either purpose. There are quite a few decent 80mm astronomical and spotting scopes that will magnify nicely up to 65x-80x. I have a Takahashi 50 that will do that. But when you want a spotting scope that will actually reach out at 100x-150x it takes a very good quality scope over 1000mm FL and an exceptional widefield eyepiece from Tele Vue, Takahashi, Zeiss etc. I have 3 scopes that are revelations on crisp winter mornings reaching out 1/2 a mile to see various birds, foxes or deer and many of the birds are basically white against white backgrounds.

The Celestron C-5 (1250mm FL) is an example. With a 9mm Nagler or comparable Panoptic eyepiece it produces about 140x with a gigantic field using an erect image prism. Even a close-out model TV Plossl in this same FL range will give very sharp views at an affordable price. The CA on these types of scopes is virtually non-existant. They are so sharp that when the air is dry and crisp they can be shocking. There are other similar Maksutov or Schmidt Cass scopes from Intes, Bausch & Lomb (Criterion) and now there are even 2000mm Maksutov Cassegrain scopes of very good quality.

These spotting scopes are not waterproof. The Schmidt Cass types are very lightweight, the Maksutovs less so. It's possible to get a 90mm spotter Maksutov for less than $150 which allows your budget the room for a really high quality widefield eyepiece (this might be more important than the scope itself). gr8fuldoug on this forum sells Nikon 60mm spotters new, with a decent 20x multicoated ortho type eyepiece, NEW for less than $130 including shipping, which might be a reasonable aternative except it has limited astronomical use, but it's water resistant. The first group of scopes I mentioned also allow you to interchange prisms so you can use a 45 degree erect image prism as a spotter and then use a 90 degree astro prism to look straight up comfortably.

We use Celestron 20x80, and 25x100 giant binoculars here for both "spotting" and astronomical views on chaise longues. They are fun, the views are sharp, and they can be nice once they are set up on a tripod with slo-mo controls. But they are extremely heavy and not really handy. We also use Fujinon FMT SX 10x70 and 15x70 binoculars that are razor sharp but really too heavy for birding use unless they are on a tripod with a slo-mo tripod head adapter. Binoculars CAN be useful because of the way they reduce eye fatigue and arm fatigue once they are set up with expensive mounting gear. But they aren't portable (realistically) and either the Nikon 60mm Earth and Sky spotting scope or 90mm Maksutovs I mentioned are much more practical in the low priced range.

Summing this up, we like very high power spotting/astronomical scopes especially in winter as spotters and all year round as an astronomical scope.

Hi Everyone!

I've been enjoying my new binoculars (even started doing a bit of bird watching! Happened upon a hummingbird the other day and I'm addicted!)

Now, I've wanted to purchase a telescope for quite some time...but, for now, I think I'd like something that would have various uses...so I was thinking of a relatively inexpensive spotting scope (since they have the potential for fairly decent magnification, and large objective lenses)...but, I'm wondering about some of the "big mutha" binoculars! I've seen 15x70's all the way up to 25x100s in a price range that would be "do-able" for me ($300ish).....

Does anyone have anything like this or has anyone used them? What are your opinions? Thoughts? Observations?(no pun intended!)

Thanks!

[ceasar]

Hi Ozz'
I have a Tele-Vue Pronto that I now use largely as a spotting scope. It is no longer made. It has a 70mm aperture with a doublet Objective lens designated as semi-APO. It's FL is 540mm. When I set it up as a spotting scope I use a Brandon 2 inch Amici diagonal. The lenses I use with it are a 32mm Meade superwide which gives 15x. I also use a 14mm Meade Ultrawide which gives 34x and a Brandon 8mm - 24mm zoom which is a 1 and 1/4 inch lens fitted into a 2 inch mount. I use it on a Manfrotto 3021 tripod. It sets up quickly and all in all it is a fine birdscope. I rarely run into conditions that allow use of more than 45x. It isn't waterproof of course but it is an example of how a fine hybrid bird scope can be assembled from astronomy equipment using a good amici diagonal. I'm thinking of getting a quality 1 and 1/4" amici to use with my 24mm Panoptic and 18mm Radian and adding a 11mm Nagler to the lot.

I also have a TV-85. but it's rather a load for birdwatching.

If you are interested in a small astronomical scope that can also be used as a bird scope you should take a look at Televue's TV76. If you are near Port Jervis, NY you can look at them at Highpoint Scientific in nearby Montague, NJ. www.highpointscientific.com.

Bob

[solentbirder]

Hi Ozz,
If you go to www.cloudynights.com (an astronomy site) and look at the forums you'll find a whole forum dedicated to binoculars for astronomy.
The Oberwerk models seem to be well regarded and are very well priced. You'll find reviews on several of these models. You can see the range at www.bigbinoculars.com
There's plenty to read !
Good luck
John

[Sout Fork]

Hi Everyone!

I've been enjoying my new binoculars (even started doing a bit of bird watching! Happened upon a hummingbird the other day and I'm addicted!)

Now, I've wanted to purchase a telescope for quite some time...but, for now, I think I'd like something that would have various uses...so I was thinking of a relatively inexpensive spotting scope (since they have the potential for fairly decent magnification, and large objective lenses)...but, I'm wondering about some of the "big mutha" binoculars! I've seen 15x70's all the way up to 25x100s in a price range that would be "do-able" for me ($300ish).....

Does anyone have anything like this or has anyone used them? What are your opinions? Thoughts? Observations?(no pun intended!)

Thanks!


You might want to consider the Pentax spotters for dual purpose terrestial and astro use. They have the big advantage of using astro eps and being fieldworthy- robust, compact, and sealed against the weather unlike a small astro scope. I once signed out a TV85 from my agency and used it near a quarry and it had to be returned to the factory for a complete cleaning because so much dust had accumulated internally in it. A sealed unit is a big deal if you are going to use it much in the field for wildlife observation.

This is a picture I took through my 100mm Pentax spotter recently.
I used a TMB 9mm Planetary Ep.

As far as big astro binos are concerned few will work well for birding because they really don't have any "close" focus-typically 60 to 80 feet.
I have one of the few big astro binos with a decent close focus - an Orion Little Giant 15x63 that goes down to 20 feet. It's decent for both birding and just looking at the night sky.

SF

[Ozz]

Thanks for your replies so far, everyone....they have made me realize that there is a REASON they make telescopes, spotting scopes, and BIG binoculars. I guess I was hoping for a good compromise. (although, I wouldn't be using the BIG binoculars for birdwatching, if I were to get a pair...and for astronomy....I might get into it as I go along, but I'd just like to get REALLY close to the moon and maybe get to see the rings on saturn..and just sort of....lose myself, you know? I don't think portability would really be a concern. I would probably just do it from my back yard. I had thought of a spotting scope, because it COULD be used for a variety of things and....I noticed that Eagle Optics has their Raven spotting scope with a tripod included for less than 400 (though I have no idea if that is a decent scope or not).

I'm currently reading up on some reviews on cloudynights.com that solentbirder mentioned, and looking at a number of models you have all suggested. And I'm open to any other suggestions, pointers, thoughts, etc that any of you may have.

And to think I just wanted to replace a 40 year old pair of binoculars for a trip.....I may just become a "glass collector" yet!

[ceasar]

Brandon also made an 80mm short focal length Bird Scope that was well received. (It's no longer made.) It was basically a small astronomical scope with a shorter focal length that was designed to be used for birding. It had a triplet objective lens. It was known as the Brandon Master Birding Scope. You can see a picture of it at www.vernonscope.com. Like virtually all astronomy refracting scopes it was neither waterproof nor dustproof under conditions as described above. But it goes without saying that neither condition is ideal for astronomy, so the protection would not be needed. That kind of protection would significantly increase the cost of a scope.

It's possible to put together a decent astronomy and birdscope package for under $500.00 by using Orion Telescopes 80mm. short tube refractor. See www.telescopes.com and send for their catalog. You can figure out how to do it yourself. It's easy. You just need an extra, image erecting diagonal for the daytime use and a couple of eyepieces that will give you 20x to 35x or so. And most importantly, a sturdy tripod!

Bob :t:

[Curtis Croulet]

I actually have a TV 85 and I find the magnification insufficient as a scope for either purpose.
Being an astronomical scope, the TV-85 uses 1-1/4" and 2" interchangeable eyepieces, of which there is a bewildering selection. You can achieve any magnifcation you want. Mine easily handles 200x (15 mm Panoptic + 5x Powermate). That's not enough?

[ceasar]

Being an astronomical scope, the TV-85 uses 1-1/4" and 2" interchangeable eyepieces, of which there is a bewildering selection. You can achieve any magnifcation you want. Mine easily handles 200x (15 mm Panoptic + 5x Powermate). That's not enough?

Curtis,
I agree. KS Bird's statement is confusing. If the seeing warrants it, my TV-85 easily handles 200x with a Nagler 3 to 6mm Zoom and it will go higher with no trouble using the Nagler 2.5. And as far as daytime applications go, how far up the power scale can you go as a practical matter? 60x is about all you can really expect and the TV-85 can handle that easily! At least as well, or better, than any of the big 4's Birdscopes with their zooms.
Bob

[Ozz]

I went and looked at the televue scopes a couple of you were speaking of. And they DO sound quite nice, but sadly, they're WAY over my budget of $300ish (you know, give or take a little). So, I suppose I'll have to just take my lumps and buy a lower quality item that will "get the job done". A few years ago I was seriously considering a Stellarvue scope (either an 80mm or a 104mm or something like that). Unfortunately I came into a situation where I needed the money for something else and yada yada, I never got the scope.

It's just that those larger binoculars look so darned cool! BTW.....realistically, in order to see saturn and it's rings...what magnification are you actually going to need? I would LOVE to be able to see Saturn. And if it's possible to get a good view with a pair of 15's, 20's or 25's....I think it'll be a pair of binocs...maybe oberwerk's....and I've heard some decent buzz about Garretts (though they only have a 2 year warranty). Zhumell has a pair that sounds like they might be nice.....

I thought a spotting scope might be nice because of the higher magnification...but apparently that's not the way to go..

Anyone think that realistically I can get some decent star/lunar/planet views for around $350? Or am I gonna have to suck it up and spend more?

[solentbirder]

.... in order to see saturn and it's rings...what magnification are you actually going to need? I would LOVE to be able to see Saturn.I thought a spotting scope might be nice because of the higher magnification...but apparently that's not the way to go

It depends what you mean. In order to see that Saturn has rings and that Jupiter has bands you need surprisingly little magnification. 20x will do it if the optics are good. If you really want to study them you need an astronomical telescope at 120x or higher. This would need a solid mounting that could track the movement of the sky.

My solution for dual-purpose nature viewing and casual astronomy is the Pentax 80mm ED spotting scope. The optics are very good and it takes standard astronomical eyepieces so you've got a huge choice. I don't usually use mine at more than about 70x because the view gets too shaky on a normal tripod. Using a 10mm eyepiece give about 50x which gives pretty views of the Moon, Saturn and Jupiter.

I don't know what these cost where you are but they do turn up second-hand from time to time.

http://www.pentaximaging.com/products/product_details/spotting_scope--PF-80ED-A_Spotting_Scope/reqID--7004/subsection--Scopes

[henry link]

Anyone think that realistically I can get some decent star/lunar/planet views for around $350? Or am I gonna have to suck it up and spend more?

Nope, not decent lunar/planetary views with big binoculars, even ones much more expensive than you are considering. Big binoculars are effective for dim deep space objects and they do look cool but their f/4 optics are very poor compared to small medium focal length telescopes (f/6-f/8) at the same price. There are many 66mm Chinese telescopes around now that fit your budget, even a few 80mm I think. Combined with a cheap star diagonal and eyepiece those will give much better lunar/planetary and terrestrial views than big binoculars. Check brands like Astro-Tech, Stellarvue, William Optics. Like binoculars, there are a lot of importers, but most of the scopes look like they come from the same factory.

[Curtis Croulet]

I'll part company with Henry on the idea of big binoculars for the Moon. They won't show you 1 km diameter craterlets on the floor of Plato, but many of the large craters and prominent features should be visible. The biggest problem will be holding the binoculars steady, but there are rigs available to help with that.

My first telescope was a 40 mm aperture achromatic refractor with a fixed 30x eyepiece. It was a model widely available in the U.S. in the mid-1950s. I could see the rings of Saturn and the two prominent equatorial bands on Jupiter. I'm pretty certain I could see Rupes Recta ("Straight Wall") on the Moon, which is pretty small. I had a lot of fun with it, and, since the Unitron refractors, Cave reflectors and Questars were only a distant dream for me on 50 cents per week, I had a lot of fun with it for several years. When I got a bit older I could view the girls down the street, but that's another story :-) At 15x or 20x you may be able to see that Saturn has rings, but it'll be very, very tiny.

[henry link]

Ozz,

If you decide in favor of big binoculars here's a trick to improve their performance for lunar/planetary and terrestrial viewing. Make some aperture stopdowns to fit over the fronts of the objectives. Stop them down to about a 2mm exit pupil. For example, stop down a 20x80 to 40mm. At 20x a decent 40mm objective will deliver all the detail your eye can see. Believe it or not you will see a much cleaner lower aberration image with more detail on the moon and planets and during the day compared to using the full aperture.

Henry

[g8ina]

My 2c worth - I am more of an astronomer than Birder, and have used the Strathspey 15x70s to excellent effect on a parallelogram mount.

Over your side of the pond they would be the Oberwerks. Relatively lightweight, with superb light grasp and a good flat field **for the money**

These are a relatively low cost entry into big bins, and can also be used for birding if you only want to watch stationary birds, using a tripod or para mount :)

Now of course, I have had to stop astronomy to a great extent, so just live with my new Swift 8.5x44s, which are amazing.

I hope you are able to sort your way thru all of the advice, and reach a happy ending.

[Ozz]

ok, after reading each of these replies carefully (those against AND for the larger binoculars, spotting scopes, etc for use in stargazing), perhaps my best bet for what I am actually trying to see, would be a decent (but lower priced) telescope....one that could potentially be used for terrestrial duties as well....so, I went (online) and looked at a couple of Orion, Williams, Astro-tech and Stellarvue scopes. Stellarvue offers their 80mm nighthawk with ,case, mount, MECA extender, tripod, 1.25in diagonal and a couple of eyepieces for $599. I could upgrade to a Crayford dual speed focus for $70, and an erecting prism for $59.
That's more than I was initially looking to spend, but it doesn't seem like a bad deal for what you get. BUT....has anyone here actually USED anything by Stellarvue? What little I've heard has been decent, but I've never talked to anyone that's actually used them. Are they actually better than the "mass-produced" Orion's, Celestrons and Meades? Or is all of that, just good marketing by Stellarvue?

Is a dual speed focuser worth the extra 70 bucks? Or would I be just fine with the standard?

How do they stack up against Astro-tech?

And perhaps my most newbie question....with eyepieces, what is the formula for magnification or FOV...in other words.....a 23mm eyepiece, or a 30mm, etc...what the heck does that translate to? I assume it has to be in looked at in combination with focal length or objective lens size????

And lastly, would a scope like that actually be a decent spotter too? (with the addition of the erecting prism?)

Oh...will a 2inch diagonal and eyepieces give a significantly larger view? Or does that have nothing to do with view size?

Thanks again everyone....

(also, I have a feeling that I'm slowly taking this particular thread into a direction that doesn't belong in the binocular forum. If this is an issue of any kind with the moderators, or with the viewers of this forum...I will IMMEDIATELY switch to a more appropriate forum...it's just that the conversation STARTED here so I figured I'd finish it up here)

[g8ina]

ok, after reading each of these replies carefully (those against AND for the larger binoculars, spotting scopes, etc for use in stargazing), perhaps my best bet for what I am actually trying to see, would be a decent (but lower priced) telescope....one that could potentially be used for terrestrial duties as well....so, I went (online) and looked at a couple of Orion, Williams, Astro-tech and Stellarvue scopes. Stellarvue offers their 80mm nighthawk with ,case, mount, MECA extender, tripod, 1.25in diagonal and a couple of eyepieces for $599. I could upgrade to a Crayford dual speed focus for $70, and an erecting prism for $59. That's more than I was initially looking to spend, but it doesn't seem like a bad deal for what you get. BUT....has anyone here actually USED anything by Stellarvue?

** Yes, I used the little Nighthawk for a while, didnt really like it much.

What little I've heard has been decent, but I've never talked to anyone that's actually used them. Are they actually better than the "mass-produced" Orion's, Celestrons and Meades? Or is all of that, just good marketing by Stellarvue?

** Any 80mm f6-f7 "semi apo" scope will give the same results. Most are clones of the otriginal Williams Optics scope, as is my Revalation 80mm 500mm FL f6.2.

Is a dual speed focuser worth the extra 70 bucks? Or would I be just fine with the standard?

** Dual speed is VERY useful for astronomy, not so for birding IMHO.

How do they stack up against Astro-tech?

** Dunno, probably the same thing.

And perhaps my most newbie question....with eyepieces, what is the formula for magnification or FOV...in other words.....a 23mm eyepiece, or a 30mm, etc...what the heck does that translate to? I assume it has to be in looked at in combination with focal length or objective lens size????

** magnification = focal length of scope / focal length of EP
eg : my scope, 500mm f6.2, with a 25mm EP gives 500/25 = 20x mag.


And lastly, would a scope like that actually be a decent spotter too? (with the addition of the erecting prism?)

** definitely, I use my Rev for astro AND birding, although it's really not as portable as some of the "real" spotting scopes such as Nikon, Acuter, etc for birding. It's a goiod 3.6KG *6lb ish) and needs a very good tripod.

Oh...will a 2inch diagonal and eyepieces give a significantly larger view? Or does that have nothing to do with view size?

** Oh my gawd yes !! a GOOD 2" EP system will allow you 80 degree views and certainly with astro I have described it as looking into infinity. Try the 1rpd 30mm EP (for EU try Moonfish, same thing).

Thanks again everyone....

(also, I have a feeling that I'm slowly taking this particular thread into a direction that doesn't belong in the binocular forum. If this is an issue of any kind with the moderators, or with the viewers of this forum...I will IMMEDIATELY switch to a more appropriate forum...it's just that the conversation STARTED here so I figured I'd finish it up here)

I've added my comments inside your quote with ** in front, hope it makes sense, and is of help.

An 80mm / 500 or 550mm FL astro scope with erecting system is going to be an excellent choice. My own review is here :

80mm Revelation semi apo review (http://www.birdforum.net/reviews/showproduct.php?product=181)

Take a look at the APOs too, try here as an example (UK based), look for the same thing where you are :

Telescope House 80mm APO (http://www.telescopehouse.co.uk/page.aspx?thelang=001lngdef&pointerid=A9FFC3A4E3E94789A81EFBDB15E9B2CC)

Happy Hunting....

[Ozz]

Thanks for the input, G8ina, it helps quite a bit

You mentioned not really liking the Stellarvue Nighthawk... Were they MAJOR issues with build quality or optics? Or just slight personal preferences that didn't quite cut it for you?

[g8ina]

Just personal prefs, didnt quite like the feel of it physically and the optics were **very** slightly off perfect ... I am something of a perfectionist though, so if you can get one at a good price, go for it. BUT try it out first.

Here's the Nighthawk at Anacortes, quite a good supplier IMO:
http://www.buytelescopes.com/product.asp?t=1&pid=5324&m=

This is a USA equiv of my Revelation :
http://www.buytelescopes.com/product.asp?t=1&pid=10065&m=

If I were buying a new scope now, I would definitely go for the new APO from my mates at Moonfish in Barcelona and Switzerland, but postage to US would be prohibitive I suspect.

Some USA equivalents for you :

http://www.buytelescopes.com/product.asp?t=1&pid=6324&m=
http://www.buytelescopes.com/product.asp?t=1&pid=10142&m=

Or the smaller 66mm Williams APO :
http://www.buytelescopes.com/product.asp?t=1&pid=10664&m=

OK, that will do, just go to the Anacortes site and there are loads of 66mm to 80mm semi and APOs to choose from...

But also look elsewhere, just in case ;)