Help with Seawatching Scope

[Binoculators]

I live on the east coast of norfolk (uk), which seems to be quite a good place for a spot of seawatching.

I just wondered if anyone had any advice on spotting scopes eg. realistically what kind of magnification I would need and what minimum lens size.
(would I be wasting my time with less than 60x and less than 80mm)?

I can't really afford the super expensive ones (£900+).

Any advice gratefully received.

I wasn't sure what forum to post this in, but the scopes forum seems to be for particular makes, and as this is a more general question.......

Cheers

[Andrew Whitehouse]

They have general areas in the scopes section too I think. I would say a wide field of view is very important for seawatching - even more than in most other kinds of birding. You want to be able to scan all the way from the closest patch of sea to well above the horizon. Sometimes you might want higher magnification at speed too so a zoom is useful but these rarely have a wide enough field at lower mags that you need. The only one that I think does is the Zeiss Diascope. The 65 mm would be within your price range I reckon, so would probably be the best bet. It's a good scope.

[Jane Turner]

I probably have wildly different views to most people on here... but my advice is go for maximum brightness, clarity and especially field of view and steer clear of high magnification. The last thing I want is a small shaky dull image and the need to do a lot of panning. I tend to pan ahead of a flying bird then have a clear view of it flying through my field of view....

I never go above 30x mags, and preffer 20x. If I had unlimited funds I not have a scope at all but a huge pair of Zeiss observation binoculars (20x60) as it is I use a Nikon ED78 and a 20x lens which would leave you plenty of change from £900.

[scampo]

I live on the east coast of norfolk (uk), which seems to be quite a good place for a spot of seawatching.

I just wondered if anyone had any advice on spotting scopes eg. realistically what kind of magnification I would need and what minimum lens size.
(would I be wasting my time with less than 60x and less than 80mm)?

I can't really afford the super expensive ones (£900+).

Any advice gratefully received.

I wasn't sure what forum to post this in, but the scopes forum seems to be for particular makes, and as this is a more general question.......

Cheers
Warehouse Express currently have a straight Zeiss 85 + 30xW on special offer for just £899-00. If you're okay with a straight scope, you have a bargain here. Later you could get the Zeiss zoom which is uniquely wide angled.

If you prefer an angled scope, the Opticron ES80 with 20-60xHDF or 30xWHDF would be ideal; also, lighter and more compact, the Nikon FSIIIED with 30xW is superb.

[dbradnum]

I probably have wildly different views to most people on here... but my advice is go for maximum brightness, clarity and especially field of view and steer clear of high magnification. The last thing I want is a small shaky dull image and the need to do a lot of panning. Agree with you Jane. I've got a 20-60 zoom on a Zeiss scope (which is excellent, btw), but only very rarely use it at over 30x when seawatching, and generally scan at the bare minimum 20x. The name of the game is to find the birds going past in the first place - greater field of view means more sea on view, and more birds found.

[Chris Oates]

I have to walk everywhere so I bought an Opticron Mighty Midget II with an HDF zoom.

Like this one here (http://www.swoptics.co.uk/view.asp?key=2550&link=froogle)

It's so small & light it gets taken everywhere and does a remarkably good job.
Has no chromatic abberation, good eye relief, zoom range is adequate, image is nice.

Plus....allows you to ID at long distance by leg colour, see feathers etc, check leg rings, see subtle beak variation...where bins just don't cut it.

Minus...being small it's light gathering properties aren't as good as bigger and better made scopes but that didn't stop me being the only one to see a Bittern last year when we were viewing by moonlight.
At max zoom quality deteriorates but didn't stop me putting people onto an American Widgeon at 4-500 yards in a flock of hundreds.

I've had it for a year or so and could well afford something better but I haven't bothered as it is so convenient combined with a carbon fibre tripod.

[geedub]

Try the Opticron ES80 ED with the HDF 20x-60x zoom (ca £550) - I use it for seawatching up here on the Scarborough coast and it's superb for the money - compared it with Nikon and Leica and it holds its own against these two right up to the higher mags. but isn't as good at the very top end (60x). Decent field of view at 20x - 30x and for the money takes some beating!

[Bubbs]

I've had a Kowa since they were launched waaaaaaay back. I have a W/A 20X lens and it's great; I don't really need anything else. So why not go for an inexpensive second hand Kowa and see how that feels; sometimes available on e-bay.

I would always ask to 'borrow' the scope for a couple of hours and use it in the field. You will need to cover the loan with your credit/Visa card.

John.

[whitburnmark]

I used to use a fixed lens for seawatching (Kowa 65mm) and the Kowa wideangles are excellent. But, if there was something I needed a better view of, it was a pain swapping lens (from 20x to 30x) and there's always the risk of dropping/getting dust in. A zoom is the best option in my opinion, and some of the newer zooms have a very good field of way anyway (esp the Zeiss Diascope 85mm when over 30x). It's ideal for watching at 20x, then zooming to 30-35 for a better view. I rarely go above 40x, only in a one off situation like a distant feeding Sabs Gull. For seawatching, I never tend to go up to full power. A few seawatching friends at Flambro' used to swear by a fixed wide angle, but have now converted to zoom.
Try the different scopes out - Zeiss, Leica, Swarovski etc are all excellent and it's a matter of whats comfortable for you and what other type of birding you'll be using your scope for. Keep an eye open for 2nd hand bargains (eg London Camera Exchange, Birdforum classified ads etc) and go for the best you can afford - definitely 85mm if possible as it does make a big difference, especially on early morning/evening seawatches.

[Gavin Haig]

I use a Nikon 25-75X ED82A. Most of our seawatching fare is at half mile plus range (as we are in a bay here), sometimes much further. I have OFTEN used top mag to clinch an ID, though am nearly always scanning at 25X. I am well impressed with this scope (had it a few months now), but have to confess that the field of view could be better. I reckon to have very rarely missed anything because of it though - 99.99% of the time, if the bird is passing through someone else's field of view, it's passing through mine. When I first moved here I used a Nikon EDIIIA with 24X wide angle. Lots of stuff was too distant to properly ID and I felt completely hamstrung. The zoom followed quickly, and then the big objective.

However, if all the birds at your your seawatching venue cruise by within 400m, maybe a different story................Mind you, E coast of Norfolk, presumably not very high above the sea? I'd go for the zoom, definitely. But then I would, wouldn't I? ;)

[JohnnyH]

I use a Nikon 25-75X ED82A. Most of our seawatching fare is at half mile plus range (as we are in a bay here), sometimes much further. I have OFTEN used top mag to clinch an ID, though am nearly always scanning at 25X. I am well impressed with this scope (had it a few months now), but have to confess that the field of view could be better. I reckon to have very rarely missed anything because of it though - 99.99% of the time, if the bird is passing through someone else's field of view, it's passing through mine. When I first moved here I used a Nikon EDIIIA with 24X wide angle. Lots of stuff was too distant to properly ID and I felt completely hamstrung. The zoom followed quickly, and then the big objective.

However, if all the birds at your your seawatching venue cruise by within 400m, maybe a different story................Mind you, E coast of Norfolk, presumably not very high above the sea? I'd go for the zoom, definitely. But then I would, wouldn't I? ;)

Another vote for the ED82, I use the 30x & 50x wideangle eyepieces though. I have the 30x on the scope most of the time & find this fine for most situations especially seawatching due to the big field of view. Incidentally the fov with the 50x is the same as the zoom at 25x, so the 50x could be good for long range seawatching as well.

Cheers,

John.

[Sancho]

Just to confuse the issue... I seawatch with the Swarovski ATS 65mm HD scope, usually with a fixed 30x sw wide-angle eyepiece. I find it great in all lights, suits me fine although I´ve not compared it with anything. As regards budget, no idea what that would cost you in the UK, in Ireland about 1400 euro (I think that´s around 850 sterling). Don´t bother buying a stay-on case, at least not the branded Swaro one, you don´t need it and it´s very expensive. But the scope itself is excellent, and Swaro after-sales service, should anything happen to it, is top-class.

[ikw101]

Plenty of excellent advice in here.

Personally I'd go for either of the Leica APO Televids. If seawatching at extreme distances the 77mm scope would be best however for more general use the 62mm version is excellent. Whichever scope you use the x32ww wide angle lens or if fitted in the 62mm x26ww is superb.

Bearing in mind all scopes are expensive make sure you invest in a UV filter. Its a lot easier to take the filter off and wash the salt spray off under a tap than cleaning the whole front end of the scope. It'll also stop your lens being sandblasted.

Obviously the next purchase should be a tripod. Its worth saving up and buying one with carbon legs. This will eliminate wind vibration and make your seawatching far more enjoyable.

[Tim Allwood]

I probably have wildly different views to most people on here... but my advice is go for maximum brightness, clarity and especially field of view and steer clear of high magnification. The last thing I want is a small shaky dull image and the need to do a lot of panning. I tend to pan ahead of a flying bird then have a clear view of it flying through my field of view....

I never go above 30x mags, and preffer 20x. as it is I use a Nikon ED78 and a 20x lens which would leave you plenty of change from £900.

agree 100%

brightness, resolution and FOV

and the small point of 'why pay more'?

Tim

[Sancho]

If I had unlimited funds I not have a scope at all but a huge pair of Zeiss observation binoculars (20x60)
Have you ever tried these bins, Jane? I often thought the same, on long seawatches I get eye-fatigue in my scope eye, often the whole shooting gallery gets blurry and my eye waters. I have never got the hang of alternating eyes, can´t use the scope with my left eye. I´d love a pair of decent observation bins, but have never seen a pair, or seen anyone using them (except North Korean border troops). But if you´re stationary and seawatching, the extra weight wouldn´t be an issue, and I think it would be great to have the comfort of using two eyes. Please advise if you´ve used these! Thanks.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by Jane Turner - I probably have wildly different views to most people on here... but my advice is go for maximum brightness, clarity and especially field of view and steer clear of high magnification. The last thing I want is a small shaky dull image and the need to do a lot of panning. I tend to pan ahead of a flying bird then have a clear view of it flying through my field of view....

I never go above 30x mags, and preffer 20x. as it is I use a Nikon ED78 and a 20x lens which would leave you plenty of change from £900.

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agree 100%

brightness, resolution and FOV

and the small point of 'why pay more'?

Tim


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I agree too although I use a 32x wide angle.

[Steve Jones]

Agree with you Jane. I've got a 20-60 zoom on a Zeiss scope (which is excellent, btw), but only very rarely use it at over 30x when seawatching, and generally scan at the bare minimum 20x. The name of the game is to find the birds going past in the first place - greater field of view means more sea on view, and more birds found.

...ditto with my Zeiss 65 with 15-45x zoom. I've found the wide FOV really useful at 15x for finding the birds in the first instance, and then just zoom in for more detail if calm enough conditions.
Having said that, its still very easy to lose the birds amongst the waves at high mags (= zoom out to 15x again), which is why I'd agree with previous postings, such as Janes's.

[Colin]

Although I have agreed with several posters (see my post above) I have a tiny tiny bit more mag with a 32x wide angle which a fixed eyepiece. I have a 20-60x zoom but I don't use it for seawatching (FOV is quite small even at the 20x end). Another point to consider is the tripod especially the head. I didn't realise that the head on my tripod, being very old, had worn and this is not a problem with a single non moving bird or scanning relatively fixed flocks such as waders on mud, gulls on fields, waterfowl swimming etc but when it comes to fast and erratic movements it was hopeless. I had not realised how bad it had become until I did a spot of seawatching earlier in the autumn. I changed the head for a second session a few weeks later and what a difference. Make sure the head has no play in it otherwise you will lose birds easily.

[tjsimonsen]

Hi,
I use a Kowa TSN-611 (60mm) with a fixed W/A 27x. It's a good alround combo and I rarely find that I need higher mag. for seabirds (shorebirds, now that's another story all together). If I could afford it, I would probably go for a Leica APO 77mm for the greater brightness and field of view.

Now, I don't know what good seabird weather is in eastern Norfolk. But if it's anything like what I'm used to from Denmark, Sweden et.c. (i.e. windy and rough) you want to invest in a REALLY good tripod as well. A high quality tripod and a pretty good scope is a better combo than a high quality scope and an average tripod.

/Thomas

[hinnark]

Have you ever tried these bins, Jane? I often thought the same, on long seawatches I get eye-fatigue in my scope eye, often the whole shooting gallery gets blurry and my eye waters. I have never got the hang of alternating eyes, can´t use the scope with my left eye. I´d love a pair of decent observation bins, but have never seen a pair, or seen anyone using them (except North Korean border troops). But if you´re stationary and seawatching, the extra weight wouldn´t be an issue, and I think it would be great to have the comfort of using two eyes. Please advise if you´ve used these! Thanks.

Sancho,

I have tried the Zeiss 20x60S. It´s a great piece of optics and as well of mechanics of the old high quality style of former Zeiss products. The Zeiss has the brightest view of all stabilized binoculars and contrast is also very good. Most birders I know who own these got them because of disliking the monocular view of spotting scopes rather than because of the image stabilisation which is on the other hand of course more than just goodies. It has a tripod socket. For seawatching image stabilisation is always highly welcome because nothing beats an binocular like this when it´s getting more and more windy. There is simply no shaking at all. A lighweight tripod works good enough for very good results on seawatching purposes with the 20x60S.

Steve

[Sancho]

Sancho,

I have tried the Zeiss 20x60S. It´s a great piece of optics and as well of mechanics of the old high quality style of former Zeiss products. The Zeiss has the brightest view of all stabilized binoculars and contrast is also very good. Most birders I know who own these got them because of disliking the monocular view of spotting scopes rather than because of the image stabilisation which is on the other hand of course more than just goodies. It has a tripod socket. For seawatching image stabilisation is always highly welcome because nothing beats an binocular like this when it´s getting more and more windy. There is simply no shaking at all. A lighweight tripod works good enough for very good results on seawatching purposes with the 20x60S.

Steve
Sincerest thanks for that, Steve, they sound just the job for me on seawatches, I´ll try and locate a pair!

[timwootton]

I use a Nikon 25-75X ED82A. Most of our seawatching fare is at half mile plus range (as we are in a bay here), sometimes much further. I have OFTEN used top mag to clinch an ID, though am nearly always scanning at 25X. I am well impressed with this scope (had it a few months now), but have to confess that the field of view could be better. I reckon to have very rarely missed anything because of it though - 99.99% of the time, if the bird is passing through someone else's field of view, it's passing through mine. When I first moved here I used a Nikon EDIIIA with 24X wide angle. Lots of stuff was too distant to properly ID and I felt completely hamstrung. The zoom followed quickly, and then the big objective.

However, if all the birds at your your seawatching venue cruise by within 400m, maybe a different story................Mind you, E coast of Norfolk, presumably not very high above the sea? I'd go for the zoom, definitely. But then I would, wouldn't I? ;)
And yet another vote for ED82 + 25-75 zoom. I use exactly this setup and I like it. There's always going to be a trade-off between high mag and field of view - but when I'm on a bird, I like to see it really well (regardless of species) - this setup is pretty good.