position of intermedius in LBB/baltic gull split

[James Lowther]

Hello all,

does anyone know where Larus [..] intermedius goes in the taxonomies which split LBB (graellsii) and baltic (fuscus) gulls?????

cheers,

James

[colonelboris]

Hello all,

does anyone know where Larus [..] intermedius goes in the taxonomies which split LBB (graellsii) and baltic (fuscus) gulls?????

cheers,

James

Didn't know they'd split them - have to go and update my website now...

[James Lowther]

It's only a putative split boris err.. tony!
Definitely not accepted by the BOU yet (not sure about other european authorities?)

[colonelboris]

I know nothing... :-C

[jurek]

Hi,

For some time intermedius was in graellsii "species". Current wisdom is that no race is certainly identifable other than ringed bird on breeding grounds.

[tf1044x]

Hi,

For some time intermedius was in graellsii "species". Current wisdom is that no race is certainly identifable other than ringed bird on breeding grounds.

Hi

I am confused, could anybody tell me which, if any, has actually been split in these species Herring/LBBGulls for instance Vega, Mongolian, Caspian, Heughlin's etc.

Trev

[James Lowther]

Thanks Jurek,
so if i understand correctly, those crazy individuals ;) who do split baltic gull consider intermedius as a subsp. of graellsii, rather than of fuscus??

also have just checked the AERC TAC document, and it seems those crazy individuals at the CSNA (dutch taxonomic commitee) accept the split, as well as treating Heuglin's gull as a separate species, giving a grand total of (at least) 9 species within the argentatus/cachinnans/fuscus "assemblage". As opposed to the BOU's paltry 3!!!

don't ask me who's right though??

[James Lowther]

Hi

I am confused, could anybody tell me which, if any, has actually been split in these species Herring/LBBGulls for instance Vega, Mongolian, Caspian, Heughlin's etc.

Trev

none, by the BOU at any rate.
Vega, mongolian and caspian all subsp of HG
Heuglin's a subsp of LBBG

the dutch recognise Vega, caspian and Heuglin's as separate but i'm not sure whether they treat mongolian as a subsp of Vega or as another species??

don't ask me about Baraba gull.......(subsp. of LBBG for the BOU, but subject of some confusion apparently)

[Jos Stratford]

Lump and be done with it. Any gull expert with an ounce of cream sauce will, hand on heart, truly declare there really are only three gull species that venture into British waters: Big Gull, Small Gull and Ross's Gull, though there is even talk of possible debate concerning the status of occasional birds variously known as Big Gull and Small Gull, so on reflection the British list could be revised to Bog-Standard Gull and Ross's Gull. Since one is a vagrant and will not be seen by most, we can drop the determiner with the first and just call it Gull ...or Seagull for short. The birding community has now caught up with the general public who have known this since time began.

[colonelboris]

Jos for El Presidente!

[Andrew]

Wise words Jos!

[jurek]

Thanks Jurek,
so if i understand correctly, those crazy individuals ;) who do split baltic gull consider intermedius as a subsp. of graellsii, rather than of fuscus??


Yes.


also have just checked the AERC TAC document, and it seems those crazy individuals at
the CSNA (dutch taxonomic commitee) accept the split, as well as treating Heuglin's gull as a separate species

Not anymore. It was so for several years. They lumped again fuscus, intermedius, graellsii and heuglini about two years ago. Reasons as in my previous post.

I think the same, d'uh, experts split and lumped them. In light of the above, your words "those crazy individuals" may be appropriate. 3:-)

[JANJ]

Of course I don´t agree with Jos and others, although sometimes the lack of knowledge and the 'systematic self' in me hungers for decision and order in LWHG, which might never come, at least not to everyone´s liking. However, the fuscus complex and it´s taxonomy is a matter of taste as it seems, and the split of Baltic Gull (fuscus) by Sangster et al. (1998) was not accepted by many authors. since there´s no indication of gene flow barrier between graellsii, intermedius and fuscus (Liebers & Helbig 2002). The Phenotypic differentiation of fuscus is probably due to feeding and migration strategy. Since Jonsson (1998) wrote his groundbreaking article, outlining the criteria for the identification of Baltic Gull more knowledge has emerged about the moult strategy of intermedius and upperpart tone variation, which shows that it´s impossible to tell the out of range fuscus from the most fuscus like intermedius, a problem which I fully agree to.
Now, heuglini is said to be well differentiated from fuscus in their contact zone, though the extent of interbreeding is unknown. In Finland there are many reports of birds with clearly intermediate characters which complicate matters further. In terms of genetic estimates, it´s said that gene flow is higher between fuscus and heuglini than between fuscus and intermedius. There are ongoing research and of course debate on the taxonomy issues of LWHG, and one thing is for sure, the contributors will not reveale anything untill there are some more solid knowledge, and that will probably take many years.
I´ll be happy to wait, because the current gull situation also keeps you awake and alert! ;)

JanJ :D

[Gentoo]

It really does depend on which checklist you follow or any combination of checklist. The AOU like the BOU doesn't slit fuscus from graellsii/intermedius. Likewise, the AOU also doesn't slipt smithsonianus and vegae from argentatus arguing that the differences between them are similar to the fuscus/graellsii issue. There is great debate on vegae though and the AOU may change its possition at least with vegae.

As far as Heuglini, it seems to have more in common with graellsii than fuscus does in many ways but is geographically isolated thus genetically isolated. If fuscus is a full species, it would only make sense that heuglini is too. No one can seem to make up their minds about barabensis.

Honestly, there is no right or wrong answer or way to think about it. Most birders follow a certain checklist and stick with that. It causes arguements among birders but I guess thats the fun ornithologists get to have with us. Personally, I follow somewhat of a combination of the different checklist.

[James Lowther]

Cheers everyone, very interesting.

My listing strategy is to follow one authority (sibley and monroe unless the BOU disagree with them), but i like to record putative splits as putative ticks...just for the fun of it!!
I've seen BLACK-BACKED LBBGs in spain (dunno if intermedius or fuscus), and wanted to know whether they could be "pencilled" in on my list. As *everyone* lumps intermedius with graellsii then no dice...

Likewise,
if you go overseas and don't know about the potential armchair ticks awaiting you then you might miss out, and that would never do would it??

;)

[Mike Pennington]

I've seen BLACK-BACKED LBBGs in spain (dunno if intermedius or fuscus), and wanted to know whether they could be "pencilled" in on my list. As *everyone* lumps intermedius with graellsii then no dice...
;)

Almost certainly intermedius in Iberia. Fuscus winters in East Africa and probably migrates through the eastern Med.

[James Lowther]

Cheers Mike,

it actually pretty much says that in collins, which is not exactly specialist literature..
i think i had previously figured out they were intermedius based on range rather than any structural or wing-tip pattern reasons, but had forgotten that until today - I just wasn't sure which way intermedius was lumped so never really resolved whether I would be able to count it as a putative tick.
And yes, I know this is all sad and feeble-minded (just in case anyone is preparing a withering cutdown as I write),
BUT,
if I wasn't into listing I'd never have bothered learning any of this stuff about LWHGs so it's a good thing right?!!

James