Magpie taxonomy

[Larry Wheatland]

Just noticed someone's list from a Chinese trip included Pica bottanensis as a full species. I'd read that the American form had been split by some too,and that there's been talk of splitting mauretannicus . Anyone up on current Magpie (ie. previously Pica pica) taxonomy ?

Also, any new loony Eurasian Jay splits yet ?

Can't make the italics work on this computer by the way !

[lockbreeze926]

In the US, Magpie is now Pica Hudsonia.

They certainly sound different, but look and behave so similarly to European birds that you can get confused about what country you're in.

[Tim Allwood]

Tibetan (bottanensis) is a large, short-tailed and long-winged, very dark sub species. It's often considered a full species but in Dutch Birding 25:2 Ebbels stated that the case for specific status was rather weak

it's on my list though!

[lostinjapan]

Tibetan (bottanensis) is a large, short-tailed and long-winged, very dark sub species. It's often considered a full species but in Dutch Birding 25:2 Ebbels stated that the case for specific status was rather weak

it's on my list though!

Not sure there has been any talk of any splitting of the various races of Picapica.

There are 13 races, with 9 of them forming intergrades where races meet.

4 races are isolated including the now split HUDSONIA. The other three are as follows:

One of the more distinctive isolated races is ASIRENSIS from SW Arabia which has a black rump, very little green in the tail or blue in the coverts and little white on the primaries. No recorded differences in vocalization.

Another is MAURETANICA from N Africa, which is also a little different in having a blue bare eye patch and a black rump ad is also vey short-winged and has darker tail. However some of the Iberian race MELANOTOS retain the bare blue skin around the eye. Vcalizations MAURETANICA are a little different, being higher-pitched and more varied.

These two are much smaller than the nominate race.

Finally CAMTSCHATICA from NE Siberia has more white in the wings, so it has white on the primaries even when they are closed, and more greenish gloss to coverts. The gloss is greater than in the nearest relatives in Amurland.

Wouldn't even want to touch Eurasian Jay with 33 recognized subspecies! However, their vocalizations seem to be pretty similar across the whole range.

[Xenospiza]

The case for splitting the East Asian sericea based on DNA seemed rather strong, as it is basal to all other Pica magpies. Again cf. the Ebels paper. Its calls are also rather weird!
The "Kamchatka Magpie" camtschatica is close to (read: should be included in) the Eurasian Pica pica.

[Gentoo]

In the US, Magpie is now Pica Hudsonia.

They certainly sound different, but look and behave so similarly to European birds that you can get confused about what country you're in.Very true. I think voice played a big role in slitting them. Eurasian Magpie has the fastest calls, American a littel slower and Yeloow-Billed the slowest. I don't know much about the other Erasian races but I will keep reading this thread to learn more.

[njlarsen]

For a summary of how different authorities treat pica pica and the like, take a look at http://www.bsc-eoc.org/avibase/avibase.jsp?pg=search&ts=1160501070573&qstr=pica+pica

Niels

[Gentoo]

For a summary of how different authorities treat pica pica and the like, take a look at http://www.bsc-eoc.org/avibase/avibase.jsp?pg=search&ts=1160501070573&qstr=pica+pica

Niels
Awesome resource. I bookmarked that site, Thanks.

[Mark Bruce]

Tibetan (bottanensis) is a large, short-tailed and long-winged, very dark sub species. It's often considered a full species but in Dutch Birding 25:2 Ebbels stated that the case for specific status was rather weak

it's on my list though!As Tim says bottanensis is regarded by many as a full species.

I'll just touch on the races that we get in Taiwan.

For the magpie we get race sericea. It's range is over a large part of China, Hainan, and Taiwan. Some refer to it as Oriental Magpie Pica sericea, but the case for full species seems a little weak and most are seeing it as just a race of Pica pica.

Our endemic race of Eurasian Jay G.g taivanus is pretty distinct. Not aware of any work claiming full species status but it is a race where a closer look would be a good idea.

[Larry Wheatland]

Thanks for all your input guys, most illuminating !

[motacilla oenenthe]

are the magpies in vietnam of the race sericea?

[AlanR]

The situation does look any clearer to me now. I have just looked up our Common (Eurasian) Magpies and the Birdforum 'Opus' view seems to be that the American Pica hudsonia exists but Pica pica does not.
I am sticking to the list at.
http://www.bou.org.uk/recbrlst1dna.html
which still has good old P pica.
Alan

[birderbf]

One thing I'm not clear on: I have seen P. hudsonia (Alberta,Canada) and P. pica (Ireland). What do I put on my life list? In other words, what are the common names of these species now? My guess is P. hudsonia retains Black-billed Magpie, and P. pica is now Eurasian. Is this true?

[Storm-Petrel]

So, the magpie that i saw in germany would be different from the one i saw in alaska? and the german one would be called Common Magpie, right?

[birderbf]

So, the magpie that i saw in germany would be different from the one i saw in alaska? and the german one would be called Common Magpie, right?

Yes, they are different. Your AK bird (my Alberta bird) is Pica hudsonia, and your Germany bird (my Ireland bird) is P. pica.

So what are the official common names now?

[Storm-Petrel]

sweeeeet! now i can bump up my european lifers list up to 41

[Gentoo]

Black-Billed Magpie Pica hudsonia
Eurasian Magpie Pica pica

[Grumbledook]

Okay I'm interested in taxonomy but still at the fringes of understanding the concepts (read a complete newbie to it). So these in my garden (NW Cumbria, UK) last day or two are Pica pica or not?

[birderbf]

Okay I'm interested in taxonomy but still at the fringes of understanding the concepts (read a complete newbie to it). So these in my garden (NW Cumbria, UK) last day or two are Pica pica or not?

Yup, Pica pica they are.

If they are in Europe (and wherever else they occur in the Old World), it's Pica pica.

The pratically identical species of bird which can be found in the western United States and Canada is now Pica hudsonia.

[Grumbledook]

Many thanks.