A question about adding birds to a list.

[Kaled]

Do any of you add birds to your list that you see in aviaries or zoos? Is it simply a personal preference thing?

[jmorlan]

I suppose you can count whatever you want on your own personal list.

The American Birding Association has listing rules which state that the bird must be "wild and unrestrained."

[Andy Bright]

It is a personal matter, though I don't know any birder who keeps a list that includes captive birds.
No reason why you couldn't keep a list of birds seen in captivity, maybe you could have a seperate list for captives.
Regards,
Andy

[robinm]

No I wouldn't - but don't let me stop you!.

A more interesting question (and one I think has been discussed before) concerns escapees. I definitely wouldn't list Mrs Smith's escaped Norwegian Blue parrot (beautiful plumage), but I am in two minds about some species. For example, just last night I saw a Bar-headed goose. I know these have escaped from a collection at some point. Equally I know there is quite a large feral population in Kent - I've seen more than 20 at one time. I record it with "dodgy tick" marker.

[Beverlybaynes]

The same thought applies to reintroductions, like Whooping Cranes here in the US. There are so very few left that if you see any outside the routes of the 300 or so known wild birds (for example, seeing them here in Indiana), they are newly reintroduced and not considered 'wild', even though they are flying free.

I've been told that something like 7-9 generations must pass before the offspring of the re-intros can be considered truly wild.

Using that rule, I can truly count the peregrine falcon lifers I got earlier this summer: they were reintroduced in town in '92; my lifer sighting was in '03, 11 generations on.

But if I should actually see a Whooper soon, I'll certainly be adding it my list anywhere, even if there is a "highly dubious but terribly excited about it" tick next to it!

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by Beverlybaynes


I've been told that something like 7-9 generations must pass before the offspring of the re-intros can be considered truly wild.

Using that rule, I can truly count the peregrine falcon lifers I got earlier this summer: they were reintroduced in town in '92; my lifer sighting was in '03, 11 generations on.

But how do you know it's not the original peregrine 11 years old?
I think that the best approach is to count birds that are part of a sustainable population, even if they were originally released... for example the red kites that have been reintroduced into England are now breeding in the wild, and I personally would count them.

[Beverlybaynes]

I see your point, Surreybirder -- how would I know that the youngsters I saw are truly 11th generation, being the g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-grandbirds of the originally introduced pair? I don't.

One of the parents is 5-7 years old, the other is 2-4 years old.

But I know that these birds are very successfully breeding in the wild now, and no one is quibbling with my decision to count the ones I saw as lifers. Going on faith, I guess.

So I'm keepin' 'em!! :)

[dennis]

Guess I'll weigh-in Surreybirder and Beverly.

The American Birding Assoc.: Rule 2.B.iv states:

An indigenous species which is reintroduced into an historic range of the species may be counted when the population meets the ABA Checklist's definition of being established or when it is not possible to reasonably separate the reintroduced individuals from the naturally occuring individuals.

Beverly.....Since you can't tell, they count!!!!!!

dennis

[Option1]

Alright, alright already, I'll take Betty the Budgie off my list. ...sheesh. Next you guys are going to tell me I can't count road-kill.

Neil ;)

[walwyn]

There are strict rules concerning road-kill. As it is considered very bad form to collect and cook your own road-kill, and you should always offer your date first choice of any roadkill you come across, so you shouldn't count birds your have hit yourself.

[jmorlan]

The rules are very clear. Escaped road-kill is definitely countable regardless of how it died. However the road-kill must not be merely dead, but like the Wicked Witch in OZ, it must be most sincerely dead.

There is an excellent book that deals with the subject called "Flattened Fauna:A Field Guide to Common Animals of Roads, Streets & Highways" by Roger Knutson (Ten Speed Press).

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Kaled,
While you can count whatever you want,if you wish to have a list that holds up under scrutiny from others,then it's best not to count birds seen in captivity...
Harry H

[Hanno]

There is a discussion currently going on on the South African mailing list. Some people feel that Ostriches seen in, say, the Krueger National Park should not be counted as they are re-introduced birds, but of South African stock. What about all the Mynahs in the Middle East? They were introduced decades ago thrive rather well. However, they are not native U.A.E. birds. Tickable or not.

[Charles Harper]

I think it's a great idea. I'll start a Zoo List. I have an old friend and fine birder who, when he grew too infirm for in-the-field wildbirding, continued with a Television List. And we've already had threads on Yard Lists, Commutation Lists, Dream Lists. Multiple lists are kept by nearly every lister, Kaled.

[CJW]

Sorry I missed this thread, but comments on another one have prompted this reply on here:

Situations making a bird "un-tickable":
1) A wild bird if only seen in the hand of a ringer (it’s OK once released)
2) A wild bird in a rehabilitation centre (it’s OK once released)
3) A re-introduced bird (or their offspring if less than 3rd generation)
4) A bird existing ‘in the wild’ if it’s origins are ‘suspect’ (sometimes a difficult call to make though).
5) Any bird in captivity, wing-clipped, in a ‘collection’ etc
6) A bird whose identification features were not seen but being told that it was ‘species x’ by another observer.

Ofcourse these are only the guidelines I follow, and what you put on your own lists is entirely up to you.

[MikeMules]

birds in a zoo, if they are "wild" and have flown in of their own accord, are fine for counting - I've picked up Buff-Banded Rail (plenty in the gardens of Weribee Zoo) and Tree Sparrow in the food courts.

If you want to share what you have seen with other people, they will probably be more interested in the free-ranging birds you have found, than captive birds that are guaranteed to be there. But then again, maybe they won't be!

[James Armstrong]

I like the idea of a"dodgy tick" marker as RobinM suggests but what does it look like as I think I'd like to use it? For example I helped somebody rescue an injured storm-wrecked gannet near Gloucester years ago. We put it in a box and took it to a rescue centre. Another time I rescued an oiled-up Guillemot from the beach at Sandgate. I suppose I feel they are "dodgy" because they weren't "unrestrained".

[Michael Frankis]

Hi James,

The Gannet you can tick, if you were involved in its rescue and saw it before it was taken into captivity. If someone else rescued it and you only saw it after it was caught, then no you can't tick it

The Guillemot, probably the same, but somehow, a thick coating of oil does cast a pall over the tick - if it was only lightly oiled, and you were the finder and rescuer, then you can count it. If it was so thickly covered as to be a slimy black lump, it isn't so easy, I guess you can say you didn't see it, all you saw was the layer of oil covering it

Michael

[Nancy]

Oh My Gawd!!!!!

I'm really glad that I'm not a serious "ticker", the complications are tooooo extreme. I'm just happy to see a new bird every ten years or so. It keeps me young.

Love reading about it though so keep on adding new ways to find a tick'. ----- I get enough of them by just walking through the grass hereabouts, the rotten bloodsuckers.

Nancy

[James Armstrong]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the feedback. I think I'll leave them off! Got to go and do some serious seabird watching. Thinking of going to the Farne Islands. Good?

[Michael Frankis]

Hi James,

Yep, brilliant. Though the show's over for breeding seabirds this year now, best time is mid May to the end of June. Seawatching is better now from headlands looking for passage seabirds.

Michael

[Geraldine]

Hi, James,
I didn't know you were thinking of going to the Farne Islands. Can I come? By the way, lunch is nearly ready.

:loveme:

[digi-birder]

Geraldine, James,

You two really ought to get a life - if this is how you have to communicate!!

:t:

[Geraldine]

Hi Diane,
It just so happens that by some quirk of fate, we happen to be awake at the same time as each other today, so we've arranged to go to Dungerness and Rye harbour tomorrow to see what's about, as long as the gig isn't too strenuous tonight, the van doesn't break down again, and it doesn't snow. Wish us luck!

:hippy:

[James Armstrong]

Hi Michael,

Thanks very much for the Farne Island and general sea-bird advice. Going to bed now...

:gn:

[Dave B Smith]

This thread on what can be ticked is quite interesting. I've got a similar question; I only heard a bird. There were four of us in the group, it was night and I think the call was unmistakable and went on for over 20 minutes.

I called it as a Ferruginous Pygmy-Owl. We were almost on the Belize border, so the range was right. I had just listened to this call from an internet recording several days earlier after reading a trip report of someone using this to "stir up" songbirds ( I'm sure that's another thread) so it was fresh in mind.

So, what do the rules say. Can I "tick" this one? Should I use a "shadowy" tick as it wasn't actually seen?

Thanks,

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Dave,

Up to you - some people do, others don't. It could of course (at least in theory!) be another group of birders with a tape lure that you heard (this has been known to happen!! - though I guess unlikely in Belize).

I guess commonest is that most people feel they have to see a bird for a life tick, but for 'lesser' lists (local site ticks, year ticks, etc), then heard only is OK. Or you could put an 'H' for 'heard only' next to it on your list

Michael

[Dave B Smith]

Michael,
Thanks. I also just read a similar thread on Birds not seen. Think I'll take your advice and just leave him where he currently is, in my handwritten trip notes.

It was a memorable moment. We stayed at an eco lodge (read no A/C) near the Calakmul ruins. We arrived just after dark, had dinner and then went for a walk looking for owls. Saw two but not well enough to ID either. Then this Pygmy owl started calling. The night was so still it was hard to guess how far away he was. I thought he might be 100 yards away but his call carried stongly. Anyway, he's now tucked away in my notes and my memory.