Canon EOS 300D

[Adey Baker]

Well, Canon have thrown down the gauntlet with their latest digital SLR release.

Previously, the D30, D60 and 10D have all been described as 'the digital SLR that we've really been waiting for' but with a rec. price in the UK of £899 (before the discount boys get to grips with it), this really could be the one we've all been waiting for!

Build-quality may not be as high as the other models, but this has not stopped Canon's 300-series 35mm cameras from topping the sales charts over the years so I'm sure the 300D will sell by the lorry-load - you'll probably just have to wait a while to get one at a really low discount price!

[Andy Bright]

I did hear that there should be something new fitting between 10D and 1Ds... though Canon says it hasn't got any plans for a full frame sensor model for the non-pro.
The 300d pricing should kill off the fixed lens 'slr' style digitals (Oly e20 type). I wonder when we'll hear from Nikon on a 300d competitor?

[Paulyoly]

I'm waiting for nikon to open their mouth as well, so far they haven't announced anything. I'm also considering a 300d, the price is just to tempting over here $899usd body only, I want the noise free pics that only a dslr will give. The real dilema will be what lens do i need to give me results close to what i get with my pentax and cp990. Obviously i can't afford a $6,000 super telephoto lens, but a 100-400mm zoom i think would do me just fine.

Any lens experts have any opinions? I've seen some great shots taken with the sigma 50-500mm zoom, then theres cheap mirror lenses at 500mm, 600mm. I love to dream.3:-)

[Andy Bright]

I'm not keen on mirrors... cheap but the side-effects (doughnuts) are too high a price for me. Best to ask 'our' resident photography expert George McCarthy on the merits of the various lenses.

[Geoff Brown]

PaulaOly,

A friend of mine (yes I have some) has the Canon EOS 100-400mmL lens and he takes absolutely cracking pictures with it. Mind you it costs over £1,000 so it should do.

[kris]

I know a few people with the Sigma 50 - 500 and I've seen some cracking shots from them.
I wouldn't touch a mirror lens. I just sold a 500mm at the car boot.
the retailers are over run with second hand ones so if you really must I'd say pick one up cheap secondhand.
I very rarely used mine and when I did I was always dissapointeds so it went away again until I forget why it wasn't used and I could get it out, use it and be dissapointed all over again

[Tony_InDevon]

Hi Paulyoly

Mirrors I wouldn't bother even considering, they belong in the same category as special effects filters, ie. multiple images of one subject in the same shot etc.

I have also been many great shots taken with the Sigma APO 50-500mm f4-6.3 EX RF and hear nothing but good things about them. In fact I'm considering one for my Nikon.

HTH Tony

[jakobs]

I wouldnt be so quick to badly about the mirror lenses. I have never used one and I agree that the doughnut out of focus highlights are terrible. Take a look at this review on photo.net

http://www.photo.net/learn/optics/mirrors/

[stevo]

Hopefully this will be the start of affordable dslr`s.A high selling point with the EOS300D is the compatability with Canon`s EF range of lenses a bonus for people wishing to upgrade from their traditional 35mm slr camera.

Regards Steve.

[Tony_InDevon]

Hi Jakob,

Many thanks for pointing that one out. In my defence the guy himself says:

"Even following focus a bird hopping around or an animal grazing and constantly moving it's head could be tricky. Forget about flying birds".

So I would suggest it has a limited use for a birder and he goes on to say:

"For not all that much more than the price of these "better" mirror lenses (and significantly less than the Contax) there are a number of conventional 500mm lenses available, such as the Sigma 50-500 ($900) and 170-500 ($600), which not only give you zoom capability, but autofocus and aperture control as well, in addition to a stop or so of extra speed".

I would suggest that a standard zoom and a good teleconverter would give you more options.

The "doughnut out of focus highlights are terrible" I agree and these alone convince me never to go near a mirror lens. In the past I have to admit I have thrown in the waste-bin standard lenses that are too soft for my liking, but that as they say is only my opinion.

Tony

[jakobs]

Tony, I agree with you, I just wanted to point out that review on photo.net which was at least for me a 'eye opener' about mirrors lenses.

[Tony_InDevon]

Hi Jacob, I really am happy that you pointed it out, it was an eye openner to me as well, so I have learned another thing today.

Tony B (:

[Paulyoly]

Originally posted by jakobs
I wouldnt be so quick to badly about the mirror lenses. I have never used one and I agree that the doughnut out of focus highlights are terrible. Take a look at this review on photo.net

http://www.photo.net/learn/optics/mirrors/

This is not the article i read on mirror lenses, but it is similar, the sigma 500mm f8 is supposed to be pretty good to.

thanks for all the lens help.

Andy, i pretty much can't afford any canon lens with a capital "L" in the name 3:-) , but according to my wife i will get the 300d if it proves to be a good camera, not until after the 1st of the year though. I wonder if i could hook it to my pentax pf80ed and would it be worth trying, isn't the 80mm pentax comparible to a 500mm lens?

[Tony_InDevon]

Hi Paul, hope we did help and not distract there for a moment.

It is only my opinion (we all have favs) but for other than the main names I always stick to Sigma. I suspect the Sigma mirror will be better than the Tamron on the link, but the doughnuts will still dissappoint.

Tamrons & Tokinas are the ones I have binned, did not like the quality and trade in value was not worth lugging them to the shop.

HTH Tony

[Paulyoly]

Originally posted by Tony_InDevon
Hi Paul, hope we did help and not distract there for a moment.

It is only my opinion (we all have favs) but for other than the main names I always stick to Sigma. I suspect the Sigma mirror will be better than the Tamron on the link, but the doughnuts will still dissappoint.

Tamrons & Tokinas are the ones I have binned, did not like the quality and trade in value was not worth lugging them to the shop.

HTH Tony

Thanks tony, i'm in no way distracted, i'm just learning about slr lenses and saw a post about the mirror lens article on dpreview. I will probably go with the sigma 170-500mm as it is cheaper and i don't need the range of the sigma 50-500, i'm assuming the quality is similar however.

[Adey Baker]

Mirror lenses have appeared to be good for many years (the Tamron, in particular is a very long-standing design) but they are never as popular with their owners as they ought to be! I've known a lot of people who have started-off with one but they always trade them in sooner or later for a 'normal' telephoto design - and nobody seems to do the opposite!

Good value tele lenses (within the price-range that might appeal to the prospective 300D buyer) are getting very thin on the ground! Second-hand models may have the problem of non-compatibility with newer camera bodies (esp. Sigma/Canon) so zoom lenses seem to be the only option for those who can't afford the 'L'-series Canon prime-teles.

Some zooms obviously give good results but they are a compromise and they usually don't perform at their best at the longest end of the zoom range. I've used a 400mm telephoto lens for years for bird-photography and I've never thought "Oh, I wish I could zoom this lens out to a shorter focal-length!"

So I can see a lot of people going for the 300D only to be frustrated to find their ideal lens is not 'out there' - not at a price they can afford, anyway.

Incidentally, lens-testing charts only show how good a lens is at recording a flat surface at a specific distance.

I'm now going to start saving for a 300D and one of those nice new Tamron 180mm 1:1 macro lenses - it may take me quite some time!

[Tony_InDevon]

Hi Paul, I've not been dissappointed with any Sigma lens yet.

I have a local family photography store (there's a clue to West Country members) who supplies to all levels of photographer, including many of the professionals and they are surprised just how good Sigma are.

In the past they have even taken the time to talk me out of some buys, the ones I binned were from other stores LOL Tony

[eric s]

I would definitly wait on the 300D a bit. Its interface is rather limited and its buffer depth is much shorter than I'd ever want to live with. I have a 10D, and the 9-shot buffer cost me some very nice Osprey flight shots which I'll never get back. The Osprey was about 10 feet away!!! (as I again supress the curses I almost said while shooting.) Well, there is always next years vacation... I can hope.

I own the 100-400L. It isn't the sharpest lens on the planet, but it is quite good. The weight makes hand holding reasonable (after an hour or two it does start to feel heavy.) You can check my gallery for shots. I believe all of them in there are with at lens.

Also, you won't have AF at the long end of the Sigma 50-500. The f-stop is too high. You would have to have a 1D or 1Ds to AF at a f-stop higher than 5.6.

Also, don't forget that it has IS, which is wonderful. The sigma 50-500 is a very heavy lens and requires a tripod. This difference should not be ignored. The only time I use a tripod is when I'm using the 1.4x TC.

I know of some people who use mirror lenses and then blur the backgrounds in PhotoShop. This can work, but it doesn't always. Something to consider.

Eric

[Paulyoly]

Thanks eric for your reply. Are you sure AF doesn't work at the long end of the sigma? I hadn't heard that from 50-500 owners. I was looking for a used canon 400mm f/5.6L, but so far no luck.

A tripod really isn't an issue for me as i'm used to carrying it with me, it is necessary for my current digiscoping setup.

[Adey Baker]

Some cameras will AF only down to f5.6 whilst a few will do so at f8.

As the Sigma is f6.3 at the 500mm end it's just past the limit of the f5.6 models so will probably only AF if the subject is contrasty enough.

Incidentally, the 'recommended' price of the 300D in the UK is £600 less than the 'recommended' price of the 10D so the compromises in buffer-memory and AF options, etc. are only to be expected - if it had all of the features of the 10D then it would be the 10D!

What would be nice is for Canon, when they eventually replace the 10D with the 20D or whatever, to 're-position' the price of the 10D rather than to just stop making it - they've certainly done this with a few of their 35mm cameras in the past.

[jakobs]

I doubt that Canon will 're-position' their price on any digitlar SLR in the near future. It is probably more profitable to put out a new model and stop manufacturing anything that is "obsolete".

[eric s]

Adey Baker

I would be surprised if the 500 end (at f6.3) would AF. The 10D shuts off AF if you put a 1.4x TC on the 400mm end of the 100-400 (f5.6 + 1 stop for the TC.) It's not that it "will do it in the right situations" it just won't do it. I assume the same is true of that sigma lens. But someone out there must have this lens, can anyone out there tell us based on experience?

As a further note, you can play tricks and put tape over some of the contact pins of the Canon 1.4xTC, and then it will AF with the 100-400L. I've done it. It doesn't do it well, but it will do it. But the point is that I have to lie to the camera so it thinks the maximum f-stop is still f5.6.

I do agree about the price difference vs. features. But people seem to be drooling over the price and saying, "I want it" and not thinking further than that. They need to realize that they are really loosing something for that £600. If they can accept that, then great.... but they seem blinded; "a DSLR at 6.1MP for how much money? I want it!"

Eric

[Paulyoly]

Originally posted by eric s
Adey Baker

I would be surprised if the 500 end (at f6.3) would AF. The 10D shuts off AF if you put a 1.4x TC on the 400mm end of the 100-400 (f5.6 + 1 stop for the TC.) It's not that it "will do it in the right situations" it just won't do it. I assume the same is true of that sigma lens. But someone out there must have this lens, can anyone out there tell us based on experience?

As a further note, you can play tricks and put tape over some of the contact pins of the Canon 1.4xTC, and then it will AF with the 100-400L. I've done it. It doesn't do it well, but it will do it. But the point is that I have to lie to the camera so it thinks the maximum f-stop is still f5.6.

I do agree about the price difference vs. features. But people seem to be drooling over the price and saying, "I want it" and not thinking further than that. They need to realize that they are really loosing something for that £600. If they can accept that, then great.... but they seem blinded; "a DSLR at 6.1MP for how much money? I want it!"

Eric

well from what 10d and 50-500 owners say on dpreview, the 10d with the sigma 50-500 will AF at 6.3 and at any fstop so long as you aren't using a tele converter. It's a little confusing coming from point and shot digitals. Eric with you 100-400L at 400mm with no 1.4x converter, say you are shooting a bird in a lot of light and need to stop down to f10 just to get the correct exposure, would your 100-400L still autofocus in this situation? I know my fuji s602 had a different AF system and of course a different sensor, but if i had to shoot at f11 i never had to worry wether or not it would focus.

[eric s]

well from what 10d and 50-500 owners say on dpreview, the 10d with the sigma 50-500 will AF at 6.3 and at any fstop so long as you aren't using a tele converter.

Did you mean "any focal length"? Because as written, I agree with your statement. But that isn't what I am talking about. What I am saying is this:
"the 50-500 won't AF at 500mm. The maximum aperture isn't large enough, it is f6.3. The 10D won't AF with a maximum aperture larger than f5.6"

The camera aways focus at the max fstop, just as when you look through the eye piece you are looking at the max aperture. I believe this is what a DOF preview button does... it stops down the lens to the same fstop as what you're going to shoot at so you can see what you will get (I wonder if it takes into account exposure comp? I assume it does, but I've never checked.)

So even if I stop down the 100-400 @400mm to f10 (as in your example) the AF system is still working at F5.6. Then it stops down just before the picture is taken and uses f10. That is what shocks me. The max aperture at 500 is f6.3, so it breaks the "f5.6 or bigger" rule for AF on the 10D.

As far as I know the only way this could work is as follows. The lens lies. It doesn't report f6.3 at 500. It tells the camera f5.6 or something larger. Then the camera will try to AF. It won't work very well (it doesn't have enough light to detect contrast) but it will try.

This is the same as the trick with taping the pins on the 1.4xTC. If you cover the 3 counter clockwise pins on the TC, the TC will not report its presents to the camera and so it will think its got a 100-400 without the TC, so it will try to AF. It huts a lot, and will oscillate back and forth, slowly getting close to being in focus... but it does work (I don't use that trick any more, it isn't worth it. I can manually focus on things like plovers faster than the tricked AF can.)

Does this make what I was trying to say clearer?

Eric

[Paulyoly]

Eric, i 've gotten the sigma 50-500 and digital rebel, the camera thinks the lens is f5.6 at 500mm so i guess it tricks it, it focuses fine at 500mm, i've yet to have it stumble even in shady areas. I think the images it produces are only slightly more appealling than those my pentax scope and cp990 produce, here's a 100% unprocessed crop from both cameras.
rebel pic
http://www.pbase.com/image/21598943
cp990 pic
http://www.pbase.com/image/21630127

ignore the birds head in the 990 pic, it's slightly out of focus, that's an advantage for the dslr, much faster pic taking. The dslr pics also print out noticeably better at 8x10.

[eric s]

How well does it AF? Does it seek, or oscilitate back and forth before going into focus? I know my 100-400 with a TC (making it an f8) is really bad at AF. It will AF, but a blind man could manual focus faster.

The exposure and white balance are better on the rebel as well. Its hard to judge because the extra resolution in the 300D shows its value here. I think the entire picture is a little lacking in sharpness from the 990. I don't attribute it to being out of focus, though.. I think its higher resolution.

Thanks for posting these samples. This is great. Now we need someone with a 4500 to do the same and we'll be in business!
Eric

[Paulyoly]

Originally posted by eric s
How well does it AF? Does it seek, or oscilitate back and forth before going into focus? I know my 100-400 with a TC (making it an f8) is really bad at AF. It will AF, but a blind man could manual focus faster.

The exposure and white balance are better on the rebel as well. Its hard to judge because the extra resolution in the 300D shows its value here. I think the entire picture is a little lacking in sharpness from the 990. I don't attribute it to being out of focus, though.. I think its higher resolution.

Thanks for posting these samples. This is great. Now we need someone with a 4500 to do the same and we'll be in business!
Eric

Even in late afternoon or cloudy conditions it focuses fast. No oscilating unless i don't have the focus point on the subject, i normally choice the center focus point when shooting birds so the camera doesn't pic the wrong one, if i don't have that dot directly over the subject then it seeks, but otherwise it's quick and luckily most birds are pretty good size, when trying to focus on a single blade of grass or twig it gets picky. I think the major disadvantage of this lens is it's weight, which makes me want to try the canon 400mm f5.6, the prime should be sharper as well. here's another 990 crop taken the same day from about the same distance. make that two more
http://www.pbase.com/image/21631674
http://www.pbase.com/image/21631675
here's another rebel crop from a little further away than the first
http://www.pbase.com/image/21631691

the scope pics look at little flat to my eye compared to the rebel, but hey let's remember what we're doing here, takeing a pic of a magnified image through a telescope eyepiece.

[eric s]

Flat is a good word for it. Something bothered me, but I wasn't sure what it was. I wonder if its lack of subtle shadows cast from the feathers?
The center focus point on the 10D (and I assume the 300D) is not the same as the other points. It can detect contrast in both directions, whereas the others can only detect it in one direction. I always use center point for focusing (and then recompose as necessary.) It should be faster and is probably more precise.

I'm sure the weight is a killer. I've been eyeing the 300-800 sigma makes. Really nice distance, but really heavy. I wonder how much I'd really use it... would I really be willing to carry that around?

Eric

[Widowmaker]

I just sold my CP 4500 and ETX-90 digiscoping setup and got the Digital Rebel. My first impressions are really good. Its everything I wanted the CP 4500 to be and more. Although I was happy with the 4500 for digiscoping, it is not a good stand alone camera. It has a poor body design, cramped controls, its slow and has low light focusing issues to name a few. I know its like comparing apples and oranges but this made me realize how unhappy I was with the 4500.

The rebel is fast focusing, does not have problems focusing in low light and is fast shooting. I was expecting a cheap feel due to the plastic construction but that is not the case at all. My only complaint so far with the camera is that it appears to be USB 1 instead of 2. File tranfer is slow directly from the camera so I will be looking into a card reader.

I recommend this camera to anyone considering making the switch to digital slr. Now its time to save up for a good lens :)

[Paulyoly]

Originally posted by Widowmaker
I just sold my CP 4500 and ETX-90 digiscoping setup and got the Digital Rebel. My first impressions are really good. Its everything I wanted the CP 4500 to be and more. Although I was happy with the 4500 for digiscoping, it is not a good stand alone camera. It has a poor body design, cramped controls, its slow and has low light focusing issues to name a few. I know its like comparing apples and oranges but this made me realize how unhappy I was with the 4500.

The rebel is fast focusing, does not have problems focusing in low light and is fast shooting. I was expecting a cheap feel due to the plastic construction but that is not the case at all. My only complaint so far with the camera is that it appears to be USB 1 instead of 2. File tranfer is slow directly from the camera so I will be looking into a card reader.

I recommend this camera to anyone considering making the switch to digital slr. Now its time to save up for a good lens :)

I like the rebel also, it's very fast. I have the sigma 50-500, but i think i want to try the canon 400mm f5.6 prime and sell which one i don't like.

I didn't realize so many people were without card readers until the digital rebel came out. Is worth the $20 for me just to not have to hook my camera to my computer, i live in the worst place for lightning strikes.