camcorder

[andy]

Hi Everyone

I am looking too buy a Camcorder in the range of £350 to £550 , i would like to use it for bird use mainly, and able to take still shots from it, could anyone recommend the most suitable camcorder available, must be 20 x or more optical zoom. Many thanks, Andy.

[esmondb]

Hi Andy, if you're serious about bird photography get a camera.
A camcorder will be (understandably) geared to taking moving images - have a look at my gallery and see the difference in quality between camcorder , 35mm and APS.

If you want to record birds on film there is a different set of criteria to fulfil.

Just ask away and everyone on here will be more than happy to help out

[andy]

Hi Esmond

Thanks for the advice but i want to be able to take mainly moving shots especially on the awkward little devils, but be able to print off a still shot, once again thanks.

Andy

[esmondb]

Quite simply, the features to look for are:
Threaded lens - so you can add a filter and/or a teleconvertor
Optical zoom strength - don't even think about using digizoom
Focusing ring (and easily accessible button to change from auto to manual focus)
Easily controllable manual exposure
Colour viewfinder

[andy]

Thanks Esmond do you have any reconmendations


Andy

[Kiki]

Hi Andy,
We have a Sony (DCR-TRV340E ) that has 20x optical zoom. We went for this as it has the biggest optical zoom we could find in a similar price bracket to yours. It's only drawback is that it has a black and white viewfinder (though the screen on the side is colour). We felt this was a small price to pay for the increased optical zoom. It has a memory stick to enable you to take stills or 15second MPEG's (bigger if you want to reduce the quality). You can attach filter/teleconverter to it. My husband has also recently tried digiscoping with it - limited success at present!

[BirdWatcher]

I use a SONY TRV-900 Digital Camcorder/Still Camera. I also capture individual frames off its mini-DV videotape while viewing the video in slow motion or even frame-by-frame playback, controled with a hand remote control. Or it can be used as "just" a still camera with a shutter button.

Biggest drawback for you would be it is 12x Optical Zoom which falls short of your needs.

Some things to look for in a Camcorder ...

Progressive Scan

3 individual CCD (1 each for Red, Green Blue)

The larger the CCDs the better .. 1/2" is better than 1/4"

Image Stabilization

Threaded front lens so you can add on accessories

I like the mini-DV videotape format

What I would really like to find on the market is an IR Remote Control unit that really worked .. and worked without a time lag.

Birdwatcher

[andy]

Thanks for the info Kiki and Birdwatcher, i will use various info to find what suits me, i will alsi check out the sony dcr-trv340e.
Andy

[esmondb]

Originally posted by BirdWatcher
Some things to look for in a Camcorder ...

Progressive Scan

3 individual CCD (1 each for Red, Green Blue)

VERY unlikely to find these features at Andy's price range, though

The larger the CCDs the better .. 1/2" is better than 1/4"



....not necessarily. All other things being equal, the same amount of light falling on the larger CCD would equal less light per pixel. This would amount to poorer low light performance. With our British climate - often birdwatching against grey skies - this can and does lead to either underexposed images or grainy(noisy) images (where the camcorder increases the gain to compensate for the lack of light).

On a consumer camcorder you can pretty much correlate larger CCD size with better still images and worse low light moving images.
Which would you rather on a camcorder?

[rka]

I'll be experimenting with a Panasonic PV-DV852 (Same as MX8 in Europe) with the Swaro AT80HD shortly. Will provide feedback in about 3 weeks.

[andy]

rka waiting to here thanks andy

[CJW]

Originally posted by Kiki
Hi Andy,
We have a Sony (DCR-TRV340E ) that has 20x optical zoom. We went for this as it has the biggest optical zoom we could find in a similar price bracket to yours. It's only drawback is that it has a black and white viewfinder (though the screen on the side is colour). We felt this was a small price to pay for the increased optical zoom. It has a memory stick to enable you to take stills or 15second MPEG's (bigger if you want to reduce the quality). You can attach filter/teleconverter to it. My husband has also recently tried digiscoping with it - limited success at present!

Taking my life into my own hands, I have to correct Kiki (she's my wife) - the camcorder has an optical zoom of 25x which, i believe is the biggest you will get in you price range.
As for 'limited success', if she'd have bought me the right tripod in the first place.......whoops! better go.....

[Kiki]

What's that well kown saying CJW?
'A poor workman always blames his tools'.................

[Xebec]

VERY unlikely to find these features at Andy's price range, though



....not necessarily. All other things being equal, the same amount of light falling on the larger CCD would equal less light per pixel. This would amount to poorer low light performance. With our British climate - often birdwatching against grey skies - this can and does lead to either underexposed images or grainy(noisy) images (where the camcorder increases the gain to compensate for the lack of light).

On a consumer camcorder you can pretty much correlate larger CCD size with better still images and worse low light moving images.
Which would you rather on a camcorder?

That is not true at all. Larger CCD sizes produce BETTER low light pictures. Here is an article on CCD imaging that explains it:

http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/digital/ccd/papersArticles/interlineLargePixels.pdf

[rka]

That is not true at all. Larger CCD sizes produce BETTER low light pictures. Here is an article on CCD imaging that explains it:

http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/digital/ccd/papersArticles/interlineLargePixels.pdf

Agreed. Also note that many believe that certain single CCD camcorders produce much better low light performance than the more expensive 3-CCD units. I believe a single CCD with large size results in greatest light gathering capability.

Examples are:

Canon Optura-Pi (Hard to find)
Panasonic MX8 (or PVDV852 if purchased in the US)

[Xebec]

Agreed. Also note that many believe that certain single CCD camcorders produce much better low light performance than the more expensive 3-CCD units. I believe a single CCD with large size results in greatest light gathering capability.

Examples are:

Canon Optura-Pi (Hard to find)
Panasonic MX8 (or PVDV852 if purchased in the US)


I've heard good things about the Optura-Xi which replaced the Pi. The Pi has a 1/4 inch CCD with 690k of effective pixels. The Xi has a slightly larger 1/3.4 inch CCD with 1230k of effective pixels.

Edit: In order to fit 1230k of pixels in the Xi's sensor, the pixels are certainly smaller than on the Pi and according to the Kodak article, could very easily mean image quality could suffer.

[andy]

I've heard good things about the Optura-Xi which replaced the Pi. The Pi has a 1/4 inch CCD with 690k of effective pixels. The Xi has a slightly larger 1/3.4 inch CCD with 1230k of effective pixels.

Edit: In order to fit 1230k of pixels in the Xi's sensor, the pixels are certainly smaller than on the Pi and according to the Kodak article, could very easily mean image quality could suffer.


Can you recommend a camcorder to take good still shots with and normal camcorder use

[Peter Galbavy]

I've heard good things about the Optura-Xi which replaced the Pi. The Pi has a 1/4 inch CCD with 690k of effective pixels. The Xi has a slightly larger 1/3.4 inch CCD with 1230k of effective pixels.

Edit: In order to fit 1230k of pixels in the Xi's sensor, the pixels are certainly smaller than on the Pi and according to the Kodak article, could very easily mean image quality could suffer.

I have recently bought a Canon MVX3i - which is the European name for the Xi. I bought it in Jessops for £949 - but have now seen it for £929 or so. This is outside the original requirement, and also "only" has a 10x zoom.

If I can now use this opportunity to chime in with my limited opinions - primary based on comparing still to video and also bad marketing from some companies...

1. Zoom. The X-Factor (10x, 12x, 20x) is only part of the story. This factor is the range of the zoom - so if the camera takes a great wide angle image, a 20x may only be 10x when compared to a camera with a not-so wide view. I would suggest to always try to compare the 35mm equivalent zoom, which should be given somewhere. For example, on my MVX3i the lens is 4.7mm/5.2mm - 47mm but listed as 43.7mm - 489mm 35mm equiv on the www.canondv.com website (but not in the manual strangely!). Also, look at what telephoto adaptors you can get (quality, not cheap) and add that into your budget. A 2x teleconvertor should be between £50 and £150.

2. Quality. Assuming you go with a miniDV or Digital8 camcorder, the moving image quality - in terms of resolution etc. - are identical. The image format on the tape is fixed by standards. What does make a big different is how the image is captured (as other have mentioned the sensor size) and the lens. Obviously, never ever use digital zoom. If you really want that, do it afterwards on the computer... Stills from video will be limited to 720x576 on PAL... but also bear in mind the issues with interlaced video (all consumer cameras) and the relationship between even/odd frame recordsing and high shutter speeds.

3. Handling. The MVX3i has a bottom-loading tape, which means no loading a new tape while the unit is on a tripod. You can botch an adaptor together to lift the unit off the tripod, but not the best... This is just one example of checking what issues you may come across when trying to pick the right camera.

4. Battery life and being away from home. I just spent £110 on the largest battery for the MVX3i - ouch - but it should let me fill 3 tapes while out. Remember how far you will be from home, and budget for batteries. I strongly advise against 3rd party batteries. My 3rd party Jessops and two Hahnel batteries are "crap". See www.batteryuniversity.com for some background as to why some cheap 3rd party batteries might be crap. (cell matching and age from factory etc.)

Back to the issue of what to buy - I would advise you to either find something basic and cheap at first, learning about what features you need and don't need, and then upgrade in a year or so, or build a checklist and go for something more expensive straight away and save a few hundred from a "failed" attempt.

I have seen basic miniDV cameras on sale at Dixons for £250 - £300.

rgds,

[Peter Galbavy]

Can you recommend a camcorder to take good still shots with and normal camcorder use

The Xi / MVX3i will take 1632x1224 still, but not in video mode - they are limited to 640x480 and don't work at all when doing 16x9 recording. This is a touch hidden in the bumf.

[esmondb]

That is not true at all. Larger CCD sizes produce BETTER low light pictures. Here is an article on CCD imaging that explains it:

http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/digital/ccd/papersArticles/interlineLargePixels.pdf

Er. Yes it is.

Kodak's article refers to bigger CCDs with (key point this:) BIGGER pixels and bigger corresponding camera apertures.

Referring back to my original statement: "All other things being equal..."

Most consumer camcorders and to a lesser extent consumer digital cameras are built with standard off-the-shelf (not bespoke) components.
Pixels will be the same size between models (more likely to be smaller to fit more pixels on a CCD). The lens diameter is the same which equals less light per pixel = noisier image = lower performance in low light.

In conditions where light levels are good and all pixels are saturated you do of course get a sharper image.


Welcome to the forums by the way!

[Xebec]

Can you recommend a camcorder to take good still shots with and normal camcorder use

I wish I could. This is my own personal opinion, but I have found that even the cheapest of digital cameras can take much better stills than most digital camcorders. For about a $1000 (USD) I purchased both mid range digital camera and mid range digital camcorder. The camera was a Canon Powershot G3 and the camcorder was a Canon ZR50MC. The nice thing about them was they both used the same type battery, so I instantly had backup batteries. Note I said "was" in my decription. Both of them were stolen by airline baggage clerks this past Sunday :C and so far, all I'm being told is "sorry, you're out of luck, we're not responsible for video and camera equipment".

[timlong25]

Hello Peter, I've just read your post and it answered a couple of questions I have.. particularly part one, about the zooms.. I posted a couple of questions I had in the Olympus forum (I've just bought a C750 and been disappointed with the zoom, but very happy with the camera overall) and want to buy a camcorder with as good a zoom as I can afford with the capability to attach an external mike for recording birdsong (thinking hard about Canon 650i/750i + directional mike).. The question I had about the zoom was that at first I thought I had a defective camera.. I got out my old Pentax 35mm slr, attached my old Tamron 90-210 zoom and pushed the zoom out to max, to see what it captured. Put that down and then picked up the Oly C-750 and pushed its 10x zoom to max telephoto (supposedly 380mm) and you know what? The difference between the two was minimal. Even now I compare the two and refuse to believe that the Oly represents a true 380mm in 35mm terms. I couldn't believe that the claimed 380mm on the digicam was only marginally more powerful than my prehistoric tamron/pentax combination. I was baffled, particularly because I'd read so many reviews raving about the power of the zoom (up here in Scotland couldn't get my hands on a C-750 anywhere to test it out, so bought it on the net on a wing and a prayer) but decided my expectations had been far too high and have since ordered a 1.7x teleconverter in the hope that this will get me a bit closer to the birds in my garden, if nowhere else (but, god, it's costing..). Wonder if you've got any more thoughts on this zoom bsiness..

Tim Long