Latin names

[ted hilland]

I am intrigued with the Latin names of our birds. However although it is always nice to impress my mates at work it would be even better if I was pronouncing them correctly so I am hoping this thread will take off and educate me. For eg.

Phylloscopus is it pronounced
Fill-os-copus
File-oscopus
Fileosco-pus
Fillosopus

This is just one eg. and nearly all baffle me

I pronounce Willow Warbler as Fillo-scopus Trock-ilus but am I correct, thanks for any help, cheers Ted

[David FG]

I would pronounce it the way you do: but I never have occasion to. Surely the only time you would ever need to use Scientific names is when talking to people unfamiliar with the English names or in scientific papers.

[ted hilland]

I would pronounce it the way you do: but I never have occasion to. Surely the only time you would ever need to use Scientific names is when talking to people unfamiliar with the English names or in scientific papers.


Thanks for reply David, would you be so kind to let me know how you would pronounce the Latin name of Robin.

It was only recently that I realised people pronounced Sabines Gull as Sabb-ines. Because it had one B in the name I assumed it would be pronounced Say-bines, how wrong can you be so it led me to wonder how many Latins I miss pronounce ( even if Im only reading to myself I like to get it right)

Thanks anyway, Ted

[Keith Dickinson]

Try this Ted
http://www.ai.uga.edu/mc/latinpro.pdf

[ted hilland]

Try this Ted
http://www.ai.uga.edu/mc/latinpro.pdf


Thank you Keith that is very helpful indeed

[bitterntwisted]

Thanks for reply David, would you be so kind to let me know how you would pronounce the Latin name of Robin.

It was only recently that I realised people pronounced Sabines Gull as Sabb-ines. Because it had one B in the name I assumed it would be pronounced Say-bines, how wrong can you be so it led me to wonder how many Latins I miss pronounce ( even if Im only reading to myself I like to get it right)

Thanks anyway, Ted

Since the gull is named after Gerard Sabine, who pronounced his name say-bines, you were right first time.

[DunnoKev]

I would pronounce it the way you do: but I never have occasion to. Surely the only time you would ever need to use Scientific names is when talking to people unfamiliar with the English names or in scientific papers.

David makes a point here which hasn't been picked up on; they are not not latin names - there is often latin in 'em, they are written in a latin style but there's also greek in there, individual's names, etc, etc..

For interest, we normally call them the 'scientific name' instead, but this is actually wrong as we usually only use the first half of it - the full scientific name actually has four parts:

1) The Genus - the first word, capitalised - the 'family' the bird is in e.g. Passer
2) The specific (or trivial) name, uncapitalised - this distinguishes the species within the genus e.g. domesticus
then (3) The author of the specific name
and (4) The year when it was first officially published.

So true scientific name for a House Sparrow is "Passer domesticus (Linnaeus) 1758".

That first part we birders use a lot of the time is actually called the 'binomen' - but I've never yet heard anyone call it that!

Contrary to David, I find I do have to use the scientific names from time to time, but that's because I often have to work with birders from overseas. This year in the UK I worked with birders from Asia, South America, the Middle East and the Pacific Islands, and they have many problems with English names. However, they get their heads around these scientific names quite well, because they use them at home, they have often come upon derivations of the specific names in their own back yards - like ruber for red, as in your Robin's rubecula and will know what it means. Also, for us Brits when birding abroad the Genus is often used in common name as well (don't you just hate South America!?! Birds called 'Xenops' make more sense when you know it means 'strange face', referring to the upturned bills on these tiny passerines..).

Sometimes overseas visitors will know the Genus already from their own country (my visitors from the Middle east and Asia for example, very happy with Phylloscopus), which really gives them much more confidence with 'our' birds.

I've never found any problems with pronunciation, either. Latin/Greek derivations or latinisations come easy to most tongues - just break down the words into as many harsh syllables as you can, and you'll be there a lot of the time, people will understand you ;-) Remember we can't agree on how to pronounce English names sometimes 'Plue-ver' for 'Pluv-ver' drives me bonkers..

A really good book on the meanings was published by the OUP in '91 if you can trace it; 'A Dictionary of Scientific Bird Names' by James Jobling. Unfortunately it didn't have pronunciations!

Finally, I've just remembered we birders do use the Scientific quite often - think of when that odd warbler pops out in the autumn and you go "Ooo I've got an interesting acro" (or Sylvia, or Phyllosc..)

[David FG]

Thanks for reply David, would you be so kind to let me know how you would pronounce the Latin name of Robin.

It was only recently that I realised people pronounced Sabines Gull as Sabb-ines. Because it had one B in the name I assumed it would be pronounced Say-bines, how wrong can you be so it led me to wonder how many Latins I miss pronounce ( even if Im only reading to myself I like to get it right)

Thanks anyway, Ted


Well I would pronounce it 'Erith(short 'E')-ar(because I use a long 'A')-cus roo-beck-you-la.

There may well be variations!

[martinf]

Nice overview, DunnoKev

[ted hilland]

Thanks dunnokev , very enlightning. My very learned freind who is a non birder reckons the wren gets its name because of its nest ie a cave dweller do you know if this is accurate

[martinf]

Thanks dunnokev , very enlightning. My very learned freind who is a non birder reckons the wren gets its name because of its nest ie a cave dweller do you know if this is accurate



Troglodyte means "cave-dweller," and the wrens get their scientific name from the tendency of some species to forage in dark crevices.

Apparently!

[ted hilland]

;) Troglodyte means "cave-dweller," and the wrens get their scientific name from the tendency of some species to forage in dark crevices.

Apparently!


Thanks for reply Martin. My meaning was that the nest itself was cave shaped, hence trogladyte, but I think either way it sounds on the right track. If I was naming the bird I may have made reference to its loud call, perhaps something like Maximus mouthus or Heardicus long before seenacus ;)

[David FG]

;)


Thanks for reply Martin. My meaning was that the nest itself was cave shaped, hence trogladyte, but I think either way it sounds on the right track. If I was naming the bird I may have made reference to its loud call, perhaps something like Maximus mouthus or Heardicus long before seenacus ;)

You were right Ted. The name Troglodytes does indeed come from the (fancied) resemblance of the bird's nest to a cave.

[ted hilland]

You were right Ted. The name Troglodytes does indeed come from the (fancied) resemblance of the bird's nest to a cave.


David any idea where coccothraustes comes from in relation to Hawfinch, It seems a right mouthful . Also as an ex goatkeeper I know that the capri part of the Nightjar refers to goats (caprine = goat) obviously a reference to the name Goat sucker, however it must have been known as a Goat Sucker before it was named in Latin.. many moons ago, does anyone know if these birds were goatsuckers or what the correlation was, thankyou Ted.

[njlarsen]

;)


Thanks for reply Martin. My meaning was that the nest itself was cave shaped, hence trogladyte, but I think either way it sounds on the right track. If I was naming the bird I may have made reference to its loud call, perhaps something like Maximus mouthus or Heardicus long before seenacus ;)

The problem with what you say is that much of the early ornithological work was done exclusively in museums, so the person naming the bird often did not know anything about how the live bird sounded or acted.

I don't know about the hawfinch, but the goat sucker was (as far as I have heard/read) *believed* to be sucking the milk from goats in the field at nigth; this widespread and to the best of my knowledge completely false story is reflected in the scientific name meaning it has been around for a long time.

Niels

[Motmot]

This may help you understand many sci names:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/scinames.htm

[ted hilland]

This may help you understand many sci names:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/scinames.htm


Thank you Motmot, very helpful indeed

[David FG]

David any idea where coccothraustes comes from in relation to Hawfinch, It seems a right mouthful . Also as an ex goatkeeper I know that the capri part of the Nightjar refers to goats (caprine = goat) obviously a reference to the name Goat sucker, however it must have been known as a Goat Sucker before it was named in Latin.. many moons ago, does anyone know if these birds were goatsuckers or what the correlation was, thankyou Ted.


It comes from the Greek for 'stone (as in a seed) breaker'.

Going off at a tangent, I misread your post to say 'goalkeeper' and was a bit puzzled as to the relevance at first!

[John Cantelo]

Whilst I agree about avoiding using the term 'Latin names', I can't help feeling DunnoKev is being a bit over pedantic here. Plenty scientific journals (and quasi-scientific ones) and papers use only the 'binomen'. Although I've never heard birders talk about 'binomen', I have heard mention of a bird's 'binominal'. Often it's the large, impossibly heavy tomes tend to go for the wole damn lot! In my view just using the 'biomen' is just as much using a 'scientific name' as is using dowitcher, rather than, say, Asiatic Dowitcher, still an English name,
John

[cuckooroller]

Hi John,
To be purposely pedantic, I agree that the term "latin name" is incorrect and should not be used. I guess whether or not a birder uses a linnean-derived term or a common name depends largely on how he/she originally learned a particular bird. Personally, I use the term "scientific binomen" intending of course the married couple genus + species, and "scientific trinomen" if there is included also a race name in polytypic species. The plural that I have been using, and without knowing if it is precisely correct or not, is "scientific binomina". Certainly I have been called to task many times for not using the English Common Names, but having learned the birds by their "scientific binomina" it is much more usual for me to have those memorized, where in most cases I have to look up the English Common Name.