Does the Anas rubripes deserve it's own species?

[waterfowlist]

I'm a waterfowl technician and a continuing student of ornithology. Personally I feel an Anas platyrhynchos and Anas rubripes should be considered one in the same. From a simplistic sense to warrant a seperate species the two should not be able to breed and produce viable offspring. Before the Europeans settled NA the NE was forested and the Black duck was the primary ground nesting duck. Now that we have cut down 80% of our old growth forest and made the lands more suitable for mallards and other ground nesting waterfowl we have stopped the evolutionary process.

In 200 years will there be a such thing as a true Anas rubripes?

[AlexC]

Well, when dealing with species lumping and splitting, you're certainly not dealing with species in "a simplistic sense." The definition of a species as "able to breed and produce viable offspring" is merely for high school textbooks. Frankly, I don't think those who deal with (in this case, avian) taxonomy can honestly tell you what specifically separates a species from a subspecies. It depends on a lot of factors, not just breeding. Most birders'll joke about Mallards being birds that screw anything that moves because of the reasonable probability of coming across a wild hybrid of one, but while it's a higher probability than most hybrid combos, it's not all THAT common. I think that unless Alder and Willow Flycatchers are lumped anytime soon, you'll be keeping your fingers crossed for a very long time.

Cheers

P.S. In truth, if you want any support for American Black Duck habitat when/if the bird starts circling the drain, it's best to keep it its own species! Endangered subspecies aren't given enough respect by society.

[waterfowlist]

Well, when dealing with species lumping and splitting, you're certainly not dealing with species in "a simplistic sense." The definition of a species as "able to breed and produce viable offspring" is merely for high school textbooks. Frankly, I don't think those who deal with (in this case, avian) taxonomy can honestly tell you what specifically separates a species from a subspecies. It depends on a lot of factors, not just breeding. Most birders'll joke about Mallards being birds that screw anything that moves because of the reasonable probability of coming across a wild hybrid of one, but while it's a higher probability than most hybrid combos, it's not all THAT common. I think that unless Alder and Willow Flycatchers are lumped anytime soon, you'll be keeping your fingers crossed for a very long time.

Cheers

P.S. In truth, if you want any support for American Black Duck habitat when/if the bird starts circling the drain, it's best to keep it its own species! Endangered subspecies aren't given enough respect by society.

They will "screw anything that moves" but the black duck x mallard cross is the only fertile hybrid.

I disagree about them being not all that common. I'd say at least one out of every 10 that I come across is a black x mallard cross.

[Dimitris]

Aren't all Anas X Anas hybrids fertile?? And if the America Black Duck is in fact a just a dark Mallard the same would go for many other Ducks around the world. (Pacific Black Duck etc)

Cheers!

Dimitris

[AlexC]

They will "screw anything that moves" but the black duck x mallard cross is the only fertile hybrid.

I disagree about them being not all that common. I'd say at least one out of every 10 that I come across is a black x mallard cross.

I'm not gonna argue with your percentage in sightings - I can just tell you that I haven't been as lucky!

As an amateur in the field of taxonomy, perhaps my view is skewed, but I feel that if you were to argue for a lump on any two species that have fertile, hybrid babies, Mallard x American Black Duck would be nowhere near first on your list.

[waterfowlist]

Aren't all Anas X Anas hybrids fertile?? And if the America Black Duck is in fact a just a dark Mallard the same would go for many other Ducks around the world. (Pacific Black Duck etc)

Cheers!

Dimitris

Some are, some are not. After some research there are a lot of mallard x anas hyrbids that are fertile. (Can't always trust every word from the professor ;) )

I just feel sometimes we go overboard seperating out subspecies and species.

[AlexC]

I just feel sometimes we go overboard seperating out subspecies and species.

If we ever want to truly understand the course of evolution and delve into accurate avian taxonomy, I don't think we're going overboard at all. Dimitris (EDIT: Sorry! I spelled it wrong before!) brings up an excellent point that there are much more similar species to Anas rubripes than the Mallard. American Black Ducks are not just "dark Mallards," they have different bill colors, different plumage features, different average weight - they're a different species.

[Gentoo]

I'm a waterfowl technician and a continuing student of ornithology. Personally I feel an Anas platyrhynchos and Anas rubripes should be considered one in the same. From a simplistic sense to warrant a seperate species the two should not be able to breed and produce viable offspring. Before the Europeans settled NA the NE was forested and the Black duck was the primary ground nesting duck. Now that we have cut down 80% of our old growth forest and made the lands more suitable for mallards and other ground nesting waterfowl we have stopped the evolutionary process.

In 200 years will there be a such thing as a true Anas rubripes?
I agree with you. I'm also big on behavior and voice as being characteristics for seperate species. Even very closely related species like the American and Eurasian Wigeons have different sounding voices, different enough to recognize. This is not the case with the Mallard and Black Duck. They lumped the Mexican Duck with Mallard and I believe the same could be done with Black Duck as well as Mottled Duck.

[Gentoo]

If we ever want to truly understand the course of evolution and delve into accurate avian taxonomy, I don't think we're going overboard at all. Dimitris (EDIT: Sorry! I spelled it wrong before!) brings up an excellent point that there are much more similar species to Anas rubripes than the Mallard. American Black Ducks are not just "dark Mallards," they have different bill colors, different plumage features, different average weight - they're a different species.
This same arguement was given for Anas diazi and it is now considered a race of the Mallard.

[Xenospiza]

I don't think lumping is a solution. All "mallards" are very closely related (including Spot-billed, Laysan, Philippine Duck...), and you could lump them all if you felt like it (look what happens in New Zealand with Mallard and Pacific Black Duck) – just lumping Mallard with the "female plumaged Nearctic mallards" (Am. Black, Mottled, Mexican) to me does not appear to be a solution at all (in that it doesn't create a better defined taxon).
There is a case to treat the "female plumaged mallards" as one to three separate entities (they are even more closely related to each other than to the Common Mallard in general), that appear to be surviving only at the fringes of the Mallard's Nearctic range. It is not unlikely that they will be swamped eventually, with the sexual aggression of the Mallard and its adaptation to disturbed habitat.

[Joern Lehmhus]

They will "screw anything that moves" but the black duck x mallard cross is the only fertile hybrid.



No. Most hybrids between species assigned to the genus Anas are proven fertile, for example:

Mallard x Pintail, Mallard x Gadwall, Mallard x Common or Greenwinged Teal, Mallard x Shoveler,Mallard x Pacific Black Duck(or Grey Duck), Mallard x Brown Teal,
I am not sure how it is with mallard x any of the wigeon species, but I would guess they are also fertile...

Concerning Mallard and its differently coloured closer relatives all over the world,
I think this is a nice case showing the whole systematics and taxonomy thing is human-invented...

We like to group things and have a neat and clean system, but evolution isn´t just like that...

[Charlie M]

Joern (as usual) is of course spot on - we're just taking that well-known snapshot of one point in history and trying to make things fit.
Where all this really matters is surely in terms of conservation: when rubripes becomes endangered (which it surely will if it continues to be swamped) where would the money come from to protect it if it's just seen as 'another Mallard' (assuming that is that our sentimental nature rules over Nature's lack of sentiment and we want to try and protect it). It would be hard to argue - especially with the current political climate in the US - that precious funds should be spent to save a lost cause that isn't even a species, but frankly I'd be very sad to see Black Ducks disappear...

[Gentoo]

Joern (as usual) is of course spot on - we're just taking that well-known snapshot of one point in history and trying to make things fit.
Where all this really matters is surely in terms of conservation: when rubripes becomes endangered (which it surely will if it continues to be swamped) where would the money come from to protect it if it's just seen as 'another Mallard' (assuming that is that our sentimental nature rules over Nature's lack of sentiment and we want to try and protect it). It would be hard to argue - especially with the current political climate in the US - that precious funds should be spent to save a lost cause that isn't even a species, but frankly I'd be very sad to see Black Ducks disappear...
You know, I didn't look at it from this perpective and you guys are absolutely right. We lost the Dusky Seaside Sparrow in 1987 for exactly the reasons you outlined. The political climate was much the same then as now in regards to protecting wildlife and it was seen as just a population of a more common and widespread species so no real protection was ever given to it.

[waterfowlist]

You know, I didn't look at it from this perpective and you guys are absolutely right. We lost the Dusky Seaside Sparrow in 1987 for exactly the reasons you outlined. The political climate was much the same then as now in regards to protecting wildlife and it was seen as just a population of a more common and widespread species so no real protection was ever given to it.


But should that money be spent on a "subspecies" when it could be spent on another bird or animal. IMHO subspecies are much more expendable; a lot more money should be put into helping solve the Lesser and Greater scaup population troubles than the black duck. There is only so much money to go around and there is less biodiversity lost in a subspecies than if a truely unique species is lost. But that's just my opinion.

[AlexC]

...IMHO subspecies are much more expendable...

I... don't see how you can even say that. Subspecies, races, variations - these are evolution at work! (I'm in the middle of reading "The Beak Of The Finch" right now - FASCINATING btw) To consider them "expendable" would be DEVESTATING. I believe that any colony/population of birds (or any creatures for that matter) - be it species, subspecies, race, slight variants - deserves support if it is in danger of extinction/extirpation due to the actions of humans (in which I include global warming).

All that aside, IMHO it's irrelevant for American Black Duck because it is "unique."

[Xenospiza]

The problem is that people are prepared to dismiss a bird's existence based on one silly piece of DNA, a few birds interbreeding, or a philosophical dispute on what delimits a species...

[AlexC]

The problem is that people are prepared to dismiss a bird's existence based on one silly piece of DNA, a few birds interbreeding, or a philosophical dispute on what delimits a species...

Beautifully put - it's unreal.

[waterfowlist]

I... don't see how you can even say that. Subspecies, races, variations - these are evolution at work! (I'm in the middle of reading "The Beak Of The Finch" right now - FASCINATING btw) To consider them "expendable" would be DEVESTATING. I believe that any colony/population of birds (or any creatures for that matter) - be it species, subspecies, race, slight variants - deserves support if it is in danger of extinction/extirpation due to the actions of humans (in which I include global warming).

All that aside, IMHO it's irrelevant for American Black Duck because it is "unique."


Unfortunately it is unrealistic to save every subspecies. There is only so much money in the pot. If you keep knocking on that senators door for every little thing eventually he is going to stop listening.

"Mallards are replacing American Black Ducks; the two species hybridize frequently", a direct quote from National Geographic Field guide to the birds of NA. How exactly do you plan on stopping this? You can't recreate the conditions that existed pre-european colonization of NA. Your right evolution is at work, right now the Black duck is reverting back to the mallard. So how do you plan on stopping this from happening?

On the reverse side the Greater and Lesser Scaup can be saved if the precautions are taken.

[AlexC]

You can't recreate the conditions that existed pre-european colonization of NA.

...why not? I have a friend who works for an environmental reconstruction agency. That's... exactly what they do.

I realize it's not realistic to save EVERY subspecies, but it's not unrealistic to TRY. Besides, every bird is part of SOME subspecies - which one do you choose to save?

[waterfowlist]

...why not? I have a friend who works for an environmental reconstruction agency. That's... exactly what they do.

I realize it's not realistic to save EVERY subspecies, but it's not unrealistic to TRY. Besides, every bird is part of SOME subspecies - which one do you choose to save?


Come on, a couple hundred wetlands don't change the ENTIRE NORTH EAST! I worked an internship with a wetlands migation company which also restores wetlands but can they really reforest all of the black duck breeding grounds? The NE was historically 80% old growth forest. 80% of that was cut down. How do you replace that? The answer is you can't. You can't even just go in and plant the tree's that used to be in that area. It must go through succession which each sacral stage changes the soils and environment for the next stage. That habitat is gone forever. Does this sadden me? Yes it does, but what can you do?

In a perfect world I agree with you, unfortunately reality doesn't work that way.

Which one do you save? The more numerous species. It's not about saving it. There is nothing we can do to save the black duck.

How do you plan on saving them?

[AlexC]

How do you plan on saving them?

This spring I'm actually spending a few months full-time assisting a research project to determine the habitat most utilized by songbirds during migration, so that specific habitat that's known to be valuable can be preserved. I guess if American Black Ducks are gonna wait for me, they'll have to wait until next fall! ;)

[lewis20126]

I disagree about them being not all that common. I'd say at least one out of every 10 that I come across is a black x mallard cross.

This was not my experience in east Long Island, NY last week; upto 300 hundred "pure" black ducks in flocks up to 50 in a variety of coastal harbours and bays; the only two F1 hybrids I saw were "inland" with a small group of mallards near Southampton. At least in relation to the coastal wintering populations of NY, on the basis of my very limited experience, obvious F1 hybrids are very scarce.

Cheers
Alan

[Gentoo]

Come on, a couple hundred wetlands don't change the ENTIRE NORTH EAST! I worked an internship with a wetlands migation company which also restores wetlands but can they really reforest all of the black duck breeding grounds? The NE was historically 80% old growth forest. 80% of that was cut down. How do you replace that? The answer is you can't. You can't even just go in and plant the tree's that used to be in that area. It must go through succession which each sacral stage changes the soils and environment for the next stage. That habitat is gone forever. Does this sadden me? Yes it does, but what can you do?

In a perfect world I agree with you, unfortunately reality doesn't work that way.

Which one do you save? The more numerous species. It's not about saving it. There is nothing we can do to save the black duck.

How do you plan on saving them?Once again I think you're dead on with your points. It was once said that a squirrell could cross the entire state of Pennsylvania without coming to the ground. Those forest are long long gone. Even if we could replant them without the succession you spoke of, this forest would be greatly fragmented by roads and all the cities and towns that now characterize modern Northeastern USA. AS you said, that habbitat is gone forever.

The only hope for ABD now is captive breeding in waterfowl collections to preserve it. I can tell you from working in a park with a waterfowl collection, there is vitually no interest in doing so. Me and several aviculturist have been trying to convice then to even get some Scaups for conservation purposes. Resources are limited and from what they've said, most waterfowl collectors these days are more into teal and pygmy geese than northern declining duck populations. Even the Scaups won't stand a chance if this situation doesn't change.

[Isurus]

Come on, a couple hundred wetlands don't change the ENTIRE NORTH EAST! I worked an internship with a wetlands migation company which also restores wetlands but can they really reforest all of the black duck breeding grounds? The NE was historically 80% old growth forest. 80% of that was cut down. How do you replace that? The answer is you can't. You can't even just go in and plant the tree's that used to be in that area. It must go through succession which each sacral stage changes the soils and environment for the next stage. That habitat is gone forever. Does this sadden me? Yes it does, but what can you do?

In a perfect world I agree with you, unfortunately reality doesn't work that way.

Which one do you save? The more numerous species. It's not about saving it. There is nothing we can do to save the black duck.

How do you plan on saving them?

With respect, I disagree with both one of your initial premises and your conclusion. You say there isn't enough $ in the pot to save every subspecies and this is probably true but saving the ABD shouldn't be the sole aim of the use of the cash. Its loss is as I understand it coming about from the loss of its forest breeding ground. These are/were however major habitats that must have served hundreds if not thousands of species of which the duck is but one. Money put into this reforestation would therefore be well spent regardless of the fate of the ABD (sub)species, a beneficial outcome there would just be a nice bonus.

I don't know much about ABDs requirements but if as you say its decline is due to the loss of its forest breeding grounds this loss can at least be arrested by halting further deforestation. Finally the last time I looked on Cornells website they indicated that since hunting was restricted in 1983 the species was increasing on the whole so the statement there is nothing we can do to save it appears to be flawed also. Its population may never reach its original highs but I doubt we'll lose it any time soon.

[AlexC]

Currently categorized as "Least Concern" on Wiki. Not that it's conservation isn't important - it just may not be the most pressing issue right now.

EDIT: I guess my view is that conservation should be handled like a hospital - patients should be taken on severity of condition.

[Charlie M]

My original point was that if the Mallard is threatening to "swamp" pure American Black Ducks through interbreeding then in effect we could eventually lose the Black Duck through dilution. I wonder whether - even if the will was there - preserving ABD habitat would protect the species from a far more rapidly expanding Mallard population? I'm not saying I know the answer, just interested to hear what other people think.

[waterfowlist]

My original point was that if the Mallard is threatening to "swamp" pure American Black Ducks through interbreeding then in effect we could eventually lose the Black Duck through dilution. I wonder whether - even if the will was there - preserving ABD habitat would protect the species from a far more rapidly expanding Mallard population? I'm not saying I know the answer, just interested to hear what other people think.


If you could restore the Old growth forests my opinion is that the black ducks wouldn't go extinct but that can't happen. There is too much open areas now with farming and development. Just to reinforce the point, the NE US has lost 80% of it's old growth forest. If we gain 5% of that back is that really going to make a difference? Personally I don't think it will.

Another question that can be asked is "what is a true ABD"? If a black duck has a weak white line across the bottom of the speculum is that enough to consider it a hybrid? In my opinion, yes. Others disagree.

[AlexC]

If you could restore the Old growth forests my opinion is that the black ducks wouldn't go extinct but that can't happen. There is too much open areas now with farming and development. Just to reinforce the point, the NE US has lost 80% of it's old growth forest. If we gain 5% of that back is that really going to make a difference? Personally I don't think it will.

Another question that can be asked is "what is a true ABD"? If a black duck has a weak white line across the bottom of the speculum is that enough to consider it a hybrid? In my opinion, yes. Others disagree.

Well now you're getting philosophical. What is ANY true species? What is any true ANYthing?? Why are we here???

B (: B (: B (:

Ah, now it makes sense! ;)

[waterfowlist]

Well now you're getting philosophical. What is ANY true species? What is any true ANYthing?? Why are we here???

B (: B (: B (:

Ah, now it makes sense! ;)


Honestly, what are you talking about? To me a black duck does not have any white on it's speculum. Any bird that does at some point must have crossed with a mallard. I don't see how that is getting philosophical but hey whatever you want to call it. :brains:

[AlexC]

Honestly, what are you talking about? To me a black duck does not have any white on it's speculum. Any bird that does at some point must have crossed with a mallard. I don't see how that is getting philosophical but hey whatever you want to call it. :brains:

I wasn't responding specifically to your "white speculum" comment - take a chill pill my friend :hippy: . Merely saying how we draw these lines "pure this", "true that" - heck, if some didn't vary and look a little off, the whole theory-of-evolution thingy (which I can assume we all here on the taxonomy forums agree upon, yes?) wouldn't really hold much weight. Basically what Joern was saying before. We like neat systems while biodiversity thrives on variance.

[njlarsen]

One of the sorry things that is going on is putting more non-native species into new areas. This is true in both the US and in Europe, and it is a threat to many native species in different ways. If the mallard is defined as a non-native species, and if release of non-native species is truly outlawed, it is not sure that the mallard spread would continue. So that is one way to conserve the ABD that would pay for itself, through fines for hunters that set out mallards.

Another way that this thing with fancy species hinders conservation, is though capture of e.g., parrots that later are sold in e.g., Miami. Later when the owned tires of them, they are found free flying in the area. This does not swamp a local population, but threatens the original wild populations.

And no, I dont think the two examples are so different that they should not be seen as two parts of the same issue

Niels

[Frenchy]

My guess is if just one planned shuttle mission was cancelled, and the money given to conservation instead, there would be enough money in the pot to do some serious good work with Black Ducks, Scaups and the whole north east US ecosystem.

Just think what you could achieve if the money currently being spent on US aggressive tactics around the world was redirected into conservation. All it takes is people power and a bit of time.

A bit of a fantasy i agree, but theres no harm in dreaming. After all, if you don't have hope for the future, whats the point in getting up in the morning?

[AlexC]

With Frenchy - what's realism without a bit of optimism?

[Gentoo]

My guess is if just one planned shuttle mission was cancelled, and the money given to conservation instead, there would be enough money in the pot to do some serious good work with Black Ducks, Scaups and the whole north east US ecosystem.

Just think what you could achieve if the money currently being spent on US aggressive tactics around the world was redirected into conservation. All it takes is people power and a bit of time.

A bit of a fantasy i agree, but theres no harm in dreaming. After all, if you don't have hope for the future, whats the point in getting up in the morning?
I totally agree with you. Problem is getting people to educate and inform themselves which in America, most aren't willing to do. Between American Idol, Reality TV shows (there's like a million of these), and iTunes, they have enough "distractions" to keep people busy and uninformed. Knowledge is power and the powers that be know this.

Sorry for the off topic rant. This is really a heated topic with me.

[Isurus]

My guess is if just one planned shuttle mission was cancelled, and the money given to conservation instead, there would be enough money in the pot to do some serious good work with Black Ducks, Scaups and the whole north east US ecosystem.

Just think what you could achieve if the money currently being spent on US aggressive tactics around the world was redirected into conservation. All it takes is people power and a bit of time.

A bit of a fantasy i agree, but theres no harm in dreaming. After all, if you don't have hope for the future, whats the point in getting up in the morning?

On the rough subject of the Bush government and its policies on taxation and spending how are these for a stats:

"If the Estate Tax were to be repealed completely, the estimated savings to just one family -- the Walton family, the heirs to the Wal-Mart fortune -- would be about $32.7 billion dollars over the next ten years.
The proposed reductions to Medicaid over the same time frame? $28 billion.

Or how about this: if the Estate Tax goes, the heirs to the Mars candy corporation ........will receive about $11.7 billion in tax breaks. That's more than three times the amount Bush wants to cut from the VA budget ($3.4 billion) over the same time period"

http://scienceblogs.com/mikethemadbiologist/2007/02/while_were_all_worrying_about.php

[Gentoo]

On the rough subject of the Bush government and its policies on taxation and spending how are these for a stats:

"If the Estate Tax were to be repealed completely, the estimated savings to just one family -- the Walton family, the heirs to the Wal-Mart fortune -- would be about $32.7 billion dollars over the next ten years.
The proposed reductions to Medicaid over the same time frame? $28 billion.

Or how about this: if the Estate Tax goes, the heirs to the Mars candy corporation ........will receive about $11.7 billion in tax breaks. That's more than three times the amount Bush wants to cut from the VA budget ($3.4 billion) over the same time period"

http://scienceblogs.com/mikethemadbiologist/2007/02/while_were_all_worrying_about.php

Because this is a bird forum I will not go into my hatred for Bush. Check my myspace page under the same name.