Initial kit?

[peteh]

Hello,

Having finally talked my girlfriend round, I am a touch baffled by what to go for in the digital slr market.

I have pretty much decided on a Canon rather than Nikon or Fuji.
What I would like is the Canon 10d, the 100-400 usm is lens
and the 2x tc.
But as that lot would cost around 2700 quid. Would I be better starting out with a Canon 10D and the sigma 50-500 lens
or even the Canon 300d and the sigma lens?
This last option with the 2x tc would come to around 1700 quid.

Can anyone help me?
Thanks
Pete.

[CJW]

I don't know Pete, sorry. But it looks like my suggestions as to what 'argument' to use won Jo over!
What's wrong with Nikon? Just 'cos 'everyone else' seems to be using the 10d shouldn't influence you away from 'the other' manufacturer. I assume you'll be having a play with both before you buy?

[Hawkeye]

Petee,
have you checked out this website. Excellent pictures and they use a Fugi S2 plus sigma lenses.

http://www.birdphotos.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk.htm

[nigelblake]

The 2X converter is not a good choice with either of these lenses as it does not retain autofocus function with them and will be very susceptable to camera shake unless using high shutter and/or iso speeds, result being soft images due to shake and 'noise', noise will also increase with post production sharpening on soft images, the 1.4X would be better but not ideal.
The 100-400mm is a good lens and has the benefit of Image stabilising it can be found for around £1200-£1300 the 10D is a little difficult to get hold of at the moment, most places have a 3-4 week waiting list for them.
The 300d whilst looking good has the pitfall of slower shooting rate and buffer to disc write speed, this could be frustrating if the action is happening and you have to wait for the camera to be ready to shoot again after a burst of shots.

[peteh]

I saw a 100-400mm used (but mint) the other day for 1000..
shame I havent got the money at this precise second..
that would have saved me a bob or two. doh

Cjw, Ive decided on the Canon over the Nikon because of the side by side review on dpreview.com
, you can clearly see that the Canon shots come out sharper than the Nikons.
With "everyone" getting 10ds that also surely must mean they are good cameras. People talk with there feet and all that :)

Right scrub the 300d (I had pretty much decided that from the early reviews Ive seen)
Are there any voices for the sigma lens? Before I finalise on the Canon 100-400 lens.

Thanks

Pete.

[Geoff Brown]

Peteree,

I haven't gone fully digital yet but have two different Canon EOS bodies ( 500n and EOS3) and four proper Canon lenses. they are superb so go for the 10d body and 100 - 400mm. Its your life and you only have this one to live so enjoy it and hang the expense.

[Eyebrows]

Hi Pete

I’m looking for a similar setup, have you made a decision yet?

I’m hoping someone will post an opinion about the sigma 50-500 lens.
The 10d is currently out of stock in UK so it’s a choice between the Nikon D100 and Fuji S2 – favour the S2 from what I’ve read. Still not sure about the lens though
I looked at the price of the 50-500 and thought hmmm, I could afford that!
Or is it better to spend a bit more on something else?

Mike

[kris]

I have the D100 and it is sharp. The only time The pics are a bit soft is when I use the 70 - 400mm lens.
I also use a 1.4 x and a 2x tc on the 80 - 200mm with only a little softing when using the 2x.
I know quite a few people with Canon 10D's and Sigma 50 - 500mm set ups and they are really happy with the quality.
In fact I have been pondering on getting the 170 - 500mm myself.
( I'd go for the 50 - 500mm if I didn't have the other lens)
The problem with the fuji is the weight and the fact it takes two different sets of batteries.
I think it has to be a choice between a Canon 10D and a Nikon D100
The other thing to consider is that at the moment Canon do have a better choice when it comes to lenses.

[Art Thorn]

I use my 100 - 400 IS with 2x converter and an EOS3. Can't autofocus (that is difficult in many birding situations anyway) but I can hand hold it with the IS working. I wouldn't discount that combination.

[peteh]

Hi Mike,
Ive pretty much decided on the 10d and 100-400 is lens.

Even though I keep thinking about the Sigma 50-500mm,
the image stabiliser on the Canon lens keeps making me think I should go with Canon.

Pete.

[Eyebrows]

Hi

Thanks for all the extra info – I’ll probably sit here now for another 3 hours reading the same stuff over and over! Got to make my mind up so I can place an order tomorrow.

Kris, thanks for the advice, good point about the Fuji, I’ll go for the Nikon D100.
Interesting to read that you’d go for the 50-500mm – I keep thinking, it’s a little bit cheaper and it’s 500mm.

Art mentioned hand holding with an IS lens, I wonder if it’s feasible to hand hold the 50-500?

Many people seem to use a tc with the 100-400 but because I’m a total novice I was put off after reading that you can’t use the auto focus - but maybe I should think about this again.

If I go for the 100-400 – do you think it’s a good idea to get a converter too?

Sorry – too many questions – I realise it’s all down to person preference.

So Pete, your one step ahead of me – you seem to have made your mind up!

Thanks again for the info and opinions
Now then what should I do......

Mike

[peteh]

Hello Mike
From what Ive been reading, most people do own teleconverters.
So I think its definately worth getting one.
Just to have the extra distance if you need it, you never know when a rare bird could be just outside the 400mm range and a tc would get a half decent shot of it. Well thats the way Im looking at it.
If you look thru the gallery there are lots of brilliant photos with people using a 2x tc on there lenses. I think with practice it would be possible to get good shots using a 1.4 or 2x tc.
A book I am reading by Steve Young said some people can get good shots stacking tcs!! Dont think I would chance that though.

If you cant wait for the 10ds to come back into stock then your only option is the d100 I think. Unless your geoff capes and you could pick up the Fuji s2, I read that it weighs a ton!. :)

If I was in England like you I would try and hire out each camera,
and see which one I liked the best, over here I will be lucky if a shop has any of the cameras!!! :)
Pete.

[Adey Baker]

Mike

If you've decided on the Nikon one lens option that you may like to consider is the Sigma 400mm tele/macro.

It has been discontinued for a while but a few dealers may still have it in stock with a price around £500.

It's an internal-focus lens which will make it easier to hand-hold.

I.F. lenses do drop in 'effective' focal-length as you focus closer but as this particular lens focuses closer than most, Sigma have 'started off' at the infinity end well above the nominal 400mm.

If you can find a dealer where you can try it out check it against the 50-500mm lens and you may be surprised.

It's a great shame that lenses like this are being scrapped in favour of zoom lenses - from the comments already posted in this thread regarding tele-converters it's obvious that nobody really wants the shorter ends of the zoom range!

For Canon users it's worth remembering that this design is a few years old and will, like many Sigma lenses, need 're-chipping' to function with the latest Canon bodies. Sigma will do this free if you've got your receipts for both the lens and camera.

[kris]

I use Kenko tc's as they are a lot cheaper than Nikon. To my mind they are just as good.
I've seen some really good pic's with the 50 -500mm taken at the 500 end, hand held, 'off the shoulder' but it was someone with 20years experience of photography. So it can be done in good light.
And I'm sure, but don't take my word for it, that the 1.4x tc has no effect on the AF with the 50 - 500mm. On the 3 lenses I use the 1.4x and the 2x I still have AF function. Don't be tempted by the 3x though, definately a none starter.

[eospete]

If the 10d is anything liek the D60 You can forget decent AF performance using the 100-400 with any of the convertors. with the 1.4x even if you try the trick of taping the left 3 contacts the effective aperture is f8 and the lens hunts for ages. The viewfinder goes so dark that manual focus is tricky. Remember your 400mm setting is actually 560mm on your 10d. Go with the kit you decided and get a tc later should you find you really need it. A set of tubes for real close ups I personally find more useful as the 100-400 makes a great telephoto macro lens. Just my 2p worth

Regards
P

PS You might have already seen the thread on 100-400 with 1.4x in George's Photography forum

[Eyebrows]

Hi

Thanks again for all the information – I think I had this page open for about 12 hours yesterday and read all your comments many many times.

Taking into consideration all of this advice and everything I’ve read over the last couple of weeks I’ve finally made my mind up.
I’m going for the D100 and the Sigma 50-500.
I’ve read loads of stuff about the 50-500 and lots of user reviews. Most say it gives excellent results and that it’s possible to hand hold up to 300mm. Also, I’m not too concerned with any negative aspects of this lens – although there seems to be very few.

Also, because this lens in considerable cheaper than the Nikon + tc option, I’m going to buy another smaller Sigma lens and a 2x converter. Not sure which one yet but a lens that can still use AF with the converter if possible.
Adey, I’m going to go to Jessops today to see what they’ve got and try them out – I read they also sell 2nd hand stuff so I’ll ask about the lens you suggested too.
Kris, I also read that it’s possible to use a Sigma converter with the 50-500 but the review I read said no AF with either the x1.4 or x2 but to use a setup like that I’m going to need a lot of practice anyway – be interesting to see the results!

Pete, I read the thread you referred to (and all the others on this site!) and this has been one of the main reasons I choose the 50-500. Hope I understood all the comments properly but overall it seemed to be basically “get the biggest lens you can afford”
And for most of us this will never be a 5k lens!
Also you made me laugh about the lack of sun in the NW – nobody really believes us when we say it rains EVERY day in north Manchester!!

Thanks again everyone for all your advice – very much appreciated.

This time tomorrow, I’ll probably be in Photoshop trying to rescue my first pics :)

Mike

[peteh]

Mike
Good luck!! and please post your pictures, I am very interested to see how it goes.

Thanks
Pete.

(ps if you get a good deal on the d100 give me a shout :))

[Andy Bright]

Park Cameras in Sussex are doing the D100 + 1gb (card or microdrive?) or the multi-function D100 grip/battery pack for £1349.99.... that's about the best deal I've seen around.

btw... anyone heard any reports on the Sigma 500mm f4.5 .... fast (but not fast enough for 1.4x t.c. to give AF on the 10d). I've seen that around for some good prices lately.

[eric s]

I guess I got in here a little late, as you have already decided to pick the Nikon.

I have nothing against the D100, I have used it several times. I like that it is smaller and ligher than the 10D. Its battery life is also amazing!

Personally, I chose Canon because:
1) IS is pervasive across their lens line.
2) The 100-400 is a better lens than the Nikon 80-400 (this should be fixed by the new 200-400 when it comes out.)
3) Canon's long class is much cheaper than Nikons. But $1,000US or more. Since I expect to get a 500mm at some time in my life, I have to plan for it.

You might consider getting a wimberley and a good solid tripod for the 50-500. The 50-500 is a heavy lens. It can be used hand-held, but not very well and not for very long (this is, of course, dependent on the user.)

Read more about it here:
http://www.tripodhead.com/

This is something I've wondered for awhile. The 50-500 is f6.3 at the long end. That is beyond the spec for AF on the 10D. Does AF work at 500mm? It could, if the lens lied and reported f5.6. Anyone know?
Eric

[Eyebrows]

Hi

Pete, I bought the D100 from Warehouse Express (http://www.warehouseexpress.com/) just because they offer next day delivery. The deal Andy mentioned sounds a very good deal – I paid £1349 but no micro drive, which is worth about £150. Unfortunately, Andy’s message was posted about 30mins after I bought from WE.

One thing you might be interested in is the 6 months interest free credit offered by Warehouse Express (http://www.warehouseexpress.com/) . Takes about a week to sort out so I couldn’t take advantage but gives you a “use while you save option” :)

Pete, I read a message you wrote about tripods and heads called “Thoughts on camera support.” I was going to buy a Manfrotto MN055 but I’m not sure if this is the right one to buy.
Also, read about the Gitzo 1548 & Kirk ball & socket recommended by George McCarthy but these two are very expensive.
Eric, I’ve looked at the site you mentioned but still not too sure.

I’ve read a lot about tripods and heads but I’m really not sure what to do.
Can anyone recommend something that will suit the Sigma 50-500 and D100 – I’m going to buy from Warehouse Express (http://www.warehouseexpress.com/) again and they seem to have a good range.

Sorry to ask for yet more advise but I realise now this is an essential part of the kit but I really don’t know enough to be sure and I go away in less than a week.

Thanks

Mike

[peteh]

Mike
I read in some bird photography book about get a tripod with no centre column. Which when I get my digi slr is what I will do.
At the moment (while digiscoping) the majority of my camera shake is coming thru the centre column I reckon.
Also without a centre column you can get tripods that the legs open out nearly horizontally.. so you can lie in the prone position but still be using a tripod.
Dont know how much these tripods are though, probably £1000 or something .. everything else is :)

Pete.

[Eyebrows]

Pete,
I'm beginning to realise this too – everything’s about a £1000!
It’s going to take me about 10 years to pay off the credit card bill when I eventually get everything!

Oh well, never mind :)

Mike

[eric s]

The Wimberley is a very popular if not the most popular large lens support device. Trust me, or do a google search on "Wimberley head review" (so you don't pick up other products named Wimberley) and I bet you'll get lots of hits. Or go look at www.naturephotographer.net and poke around there.

Is it overkill for that lens (50-500)? Maybe. But for the 500 f4 and 600 f4 it is quite popular and very nice. I actually saw one this past weekend with a 500mm and it worked very well.

Let’s reason this out. The Sigma is 4.1lbs (lighter than I thought.) The 500 f4 is 7.6lbs. So it sounds like for weight reasons, there really isn't a need for the full Wimberley. It's designed for heavier things (it will still work, of course.) The Side Kick is smaller and designed for lighter lenses. The reason you get either of these (or the knock offs, of which there are a few) is for the freedom of movement and the weight support. They made the lens/camera really easy to maneuver. Since the weight is mostly held by the Wimberley, all you are doing is aiming the device. When you use a traditional head you are moving the entire mass with very little support help (but still some.)

I don't blame you if you don't want to spend the money. They aren't cheap. But it does replace the ball head so you wouldn't have to pay for that (well, the side kick doesn't, but the Wimberley does.)

Many tripods makers sell a short center column that helps in allowing the tripod to be lowered. You also might want a leveling center column which some make. I haven't done that yet, but I've considered it as leveling can be important. For example:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=272854&is=REG

If you want to buy a smaller tripod which can contort into the most amazing positions, check out :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=206494&is=REG

It's a bit expensive for a tripod of its weight class, but you can do amazing things with it. And it's very steady. I ended up getting the Manfrotto Carbon One because I was afraid this tripod wouldn't work well with the spotting scope I also use it with.

Realize that the 1548 tripod is extremely expensive, very high-end tripod. It's designed to hold 33lbs (15kg) & it's fairly heavy at 6.75lbs. Do you really need that class of support? You could easily get away with a tripod which olds 26lbs, or probably even a 17lb one. 'cause it sounds like you won't be using any of the heavier, long lenses like the 500 f4 and bigger.

This one:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=180915&is=REG

is a good one that holds 17lbs (8kg). Or this one which holds 26lbs:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=145131&is=REG

Can anyone post a link to the "Thoughts on camera support." thread? Or where it's located so I can read it?

As for the Kirk Head. They make very good heads. A bit cheaper than the Arca-Swiss ones, but with an extra knob. I'll have to go read what George McCarthy said about them. I've been going back and forth on which I will get. Of course, I'm lusting after the Sigma 300-800, which basically requires the Wimberley... so that might be moot. :)

Eric

[eric s]

Ok, I found that thread "thoughts on camera support". Its at:
http://www.birdforum.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6551
for those that don't know of it. Gotta read that.

I also looked at George's post about tripods and heads. I notice that he does use the Wimberley.
For action and flight work I replace the ball head on the big Gitzo with a full blown Wimberly. That kinda scares me. It he isn't refering to the 1548, then I wonder what he means by "big Gitzo"?! The Wimberley is amazingly good at flight pictures, but I've read posts on other forums about people who use it most of the time just because it's so nice.

Eric

[Adey Baker]

Andy Bright

I've noticed that 'rayh' uses a Canon 10D with a 'Sigma 500mm' according to the 'equipment used' under his photos - but there's no indication as to which model lens it is.

Adey

[rayh]

Adey,
Its the sigma EX 500f4.5 mostly but I also use the 170-500 zoom.

Rayh

[Andy Bright]

How do you get on with it, Ray. I've seen it for a good price and it's pretty fast at f4.5 ... no chance with AF on the 10d with a teleconverter though?
Andy

[rayh]

Hi Andy,
I personally find it an excellent lens for the money
just over a third of the price of the Canon equivelent if you shop around.
As for tele-converters I have two....

SigmaEX 1.4xgood quality but AF dosen't work
Telepus 2x 7element resonable quality AF works
as for the reason I don't know(swapping this for a EX2x in the near future because of the quality issue though)

Regards
Rayh

[eric s]

I'm sure that it doesn't report the change in f-stop, so the camera thinks it's still at f4.5 (like the pin taping trick on the canon 1.4x TC.

The question I have is.... how well does it AF? Does it work with any non-sigma TCs? How about the Kenko Pro TCs? Just wondering because I've read statements like "you get better results using the TC from the same manufacturer of the lens." Part of me can see that logic, while another part says "wait, if the quality of TC A is less than TC B (in parts, coatings, whatever) then why would using TC B with a lens made by company A be worse than using TC A with a lens from A? Something seems a bit odd there....

Eric

[Eyebrows]

Hi Rayh

Which tripod and head do you use with the Sigma 500mm?

Eric - thanks for the extra info and links – very helpful info but I’m still a bit unsure.

Mike

[eric s]

Dont' blame you. Money doesn't grow on trees. You can always get it later! I mention it more because its something to consider. I didn't realize that such a device existed until I bumped into reviews of it.

Eric

[Andy Bright]

Originally posted by rayh
Hi Andy,
I personally find it an excellent lens for the money
just over a third of the price of the Canon equivelent if you shop around.
As for tele-converters I have two....

SigmaEX 1.4xgood quality but AF dosen't work
Telepus 2x 7element resonable quality AF works
as for the reason I don't know(swapping this for a EX2x in the near future because of the quality issue though)

Regards
Rayh

Thanks Ray,
I've seen the 500mm f4.5 for about £1800 new or around £1400 secondhand, so it seems a good buy.

I think Nigel used to have the 800mm f5.6. so he could be the one to ask if anyone needs any info on that big Sigma. I'll try to get the pennies (ha!) for a 500 or 600 f4 though, otherwise I'll always be hankering for an upgrade.

[peteh]

Calling Mike aka eyebrows
How is it going?
I am hoping no news is good news.
Do you have any pictures to upload yet?

Pete.

[peteh]

Ah well thought I would keep everyone upto date on how i am going...
I got my first bit of kit ordered today...................
a beanbag!!!
hehehe

[eric s]

Damn, I knew I forgot something!

Personally, I've been wondering about using a beany baby. Has a bit more style. The average ones are probably too small... maybe I could find a Hippo or elephant?

Eric

[peteh]

what about a camel?
the lens could balance in between the humps ?
:)

[Andy Bright]

[QUOTE Unless your geoff capes and you could pick up the Fuji s2, I read that it weighs a ton!. :)
QUOTE]

I know it's an ancient thread but in the interests of accuracy (people come in from google to read these threads) I'll point out that the Fuji S2 is 760g in weight, so 60g heavier than the D100 but lighter than the 790g Canon 10d.