What is the name of that factory in Japan that makes all the lenses>

[oldbaldman]

Have had it mentioned to me again this weekend. They apparently make binoculars and scopes but put a slightly different grip or focus wheel ends or caps onfor the different brands. Who are they please? I was told they do Delta, among others.

Is there any maker that makes their own lenses and that are better than the Japanese maker?

cheers

obm

[ThoLa]

Have had it mentioned to me again this weekend. They apparently make binoculars and scopes but put a slightly different grip or focus wheel ends or caps onfor the different brands. Who are they please? I was told they do Delta, among others.

Is there any maker that makes their own lenses and that are better than the Japanese maker?

cheers

obm


Tamron?
They were supposed to manufacture camera lenses for more than one major company in the past.

Zeiss makes its on lenses, Swarovski presumably too.

Tom

[hinnark]

Have had it mentioned to me again this weekend. They apparently make binoculars and scopes but put a slightly different grip or focus wheel ends or caps onfor the different brands. Who are they please? I was told they do Delta, among others.

Kamakura Koki Co., Ltd.


Is there any maker that makes their own lenses and that are better than the Japanese maker?

Nikon use their own glass/lenses for their top products. Don´t know if this is the case for their cheaper products and if those are better than the Kamakura stuff.
Thomas: Zeiss, Swarovski and others produce their own lenses. But the glass comes in changing portions from Schott, Hoya and Ohara.

Steve

[ThoLa]

Kamakura Koki Co., Ltd.



Nikon use their own glass/lenses for their top products. Don´t know if this is the case for their cheaper products and if those are better than the Kamakura stuff.
Thomas: Zeiss, Swarovski and others produce their own lenses. But the glass comes in changing portions from Schott, Hoya and Ohara.

Steve

Hi Steve!
I know .... a little bit.
Schott is part of the "Zeiss Group", so it's obvious who makes the famous FL glass.
Leica gets its glass from Corning in the USA.
Swarovski may have its own melting facility as they are big in glass in general.

For a long time there have been constant rumours that highly reputed japanese companies like Pentax and Minolta got their optical elements either from Tamron or Hoya.
Who knows?

It is probably not too important as several makers seem to have good recipes.

Tom

[oldbaldman]

Thank you very much. Kamakura was the name mentioned to me.

I tried a couple of scopes at the weekend and was fortunate to be able to make a direct comparison between my Jessops own brand Centon 20 - 60 x 60 scope and an Opticron scope with a 50 lens and an Optolyth with a 70 lens.

Due to heat haze I could not test at a good distance but from what I did try I saw no improvement over my basic Jessops scope.

Looks to me as though you have to spend a lot of money to achieve improvements.

obm

[Blincodave]

As far as I am aware, Kamakura is the name (or something very similar) For example, the high end Nikon binos are designed/engineered by Nikon but manufactured for them bythis massive binocular manufacturer in Japan who make optics to a budget/design/quality specification. The HG range is at the top of this Japanese manufacturers 'range'.

Opticron/RSPB/Avians/Deltas etc are probably all produced in the same factory. The super Bausch & Lomb Elites of a few years ago also came from the same place. If you wanted to start a range of 'oldbaldman Optics' and were willing to order enough, then they would produce them for you! This could explain the similar build feel/look between several 'brands'.


In effect there are only 4 significant binocular manufacturers in the world: Zeiss, Leica, Swarovski and this Japanese manufacturer. I was told all of this by the guy who owns a major retail outlet in the South East. Nikons budget gear is manufactured in China - the Nikon ED 50 Scope being the first quality exception to this.

Dave

[Leif]

As far as I am aware Nikon do not outsource manufacturing of binoculars. Where did you get that information? They have their own glass works. They have sometimes outsourced low end cameras and lenses such as the FM10 which I think was made by Cosina. I suspect they also outsource some accessories (judging by the poor quality).

[chartwell99]

As far as I am aware, Kamakura is the name (or something very similar) For example, the high end Nikon binos are designed/engineered by Nikon but manufactured for them bythis massive binocular manufacturer in Japan who make optics to a budget/design/quality specification. The HG range is at the top of this Japanese manufacturers 'range'.

Opticron/RSPB/Avians/Deltas etc are probably all produced in the same factory. The super Bausch & Lomb Elites of a few years ago also came from the same place. If you wanted to start a range of 'oldbaldman Optics' and were willing to order enough, then they would produce them for you! This could explain the similar build feel/look between several 'brands'.


In effect there are only 4 significant binocular manufacturers in the world: Zeiss, Leica, Swarovski and this Japanese manufacturer. I was told all of this by the guy who owns a major retail outlet in the South East. Nikons budget gear is manufactured in China - the Nikon ED 50 Scope being the first quality exception to this.

Dave

I wonder whether this Japanese maker also assembles binoculars for Minox and Docter as there is no "Made in Germany" tag on either despite the blizzard of German on the boxes of both brands.

[Curtis Croulet]

As far as I am aware Nikon do not outsource manufacturing of binoculars.
The 8x42 Monarch we bought for our daughter a year or two ago was made in China.

[oldbaldman]

Missed out on a used swaro scope today. After discussion with partner and discussing how often we go birding, most weekends, we figured it would be worth making the once in a lifetime spend, and getting (arguably) one of the best.

Also had a chat with a very very helpful guy at the Norfolk branch of In Focus who told me a bit about Kamakura etc and other lenses. I am not sure that "Oldbaldman" binoculars would sell well? No matter how much spec I put in.

From from what I read here and what has been said to me it seems that at the lower price end market the visible sight differences are less marked than bottom market to top of market.

Still little gems to be found tho as I discovered in a charity shop today. A pair of ReVUE 8 x 40 bins with very good views through them and only £9.00. Seems to be a German company. That is all I could find out.

thanks for the input here, very helpful. looks like I need to go top one of the big 4.

obm

[alan_rymer]

The 8x42 Monarch we bought for our daughter a year or two ago was made in China.

And my Monarch 8x36s I bought this year.

[Blincodave]

Another example of Nikon's outsourcing may well the Nikon Spotter XL Spotting Scope which is very similar to the B&L Elite 15-45 x 60. Again, I believe they originate in the same Japanese factory. I would think the excellent Spotting Scopes such as the ED82 are manufactured in house.

Dave

[hinnark]

I wonder whether this Japanese maker also assembles binoculars for Minox and Docter as there is no "Made in Germany" tag on either despite the blizzard of German on the boxes of both brands.

I think we should avoid to mix all things together here. Kamakura assembled binoculars for Minox and e.g. Pentax but not for Docter. Docter optics are still made in Germany, Eisfeld. You can find this tag somewhere on the box.
BTW the collaborating between German brands and Japanese makers started in the late sixties. German brand names like e.g. Eschenbach, Revue, Exacta. There is a code on older binoculars like this with which one can identify the Japanese factory.

Leif: I think you are right about Nikon binoculars.
The 50ED is indeed one of the first quality optics I saw "Made in China". Another one is the Fujinon 12x32 Technostabi.

Steve

[Leif]

I wonder whether this Japanese maker also assembles binoculars for Minox and Docter as there is no "Made in Germany" tag on either despite the blizzard of German on the boxes of both brands.

I have no idea about Docter but I'm sure some if not all Minox bins are made in Japan, or at least by a Japanese company, perhaps with manufacturing in China.

[oldbaldman]

Can anyone pls confirm my belief - that the reVue 8 x 30 (not 40 as I earlier stated) will be better in bright light conditions. And the Hans Weiss 8 x 40 that my partner uses will be better in lower light conditions? And, that this is all down to the size of the lens at front, mainly, as I know quality of the glass etc also figures in the equation?

We went to Pagham today and in bright light the reVue gave excellent viewing. Being lighter and smaller than the Hans Weiss they were her preferred option.

And if anyone can tell me anything about Hans Weiss binoculars, that would be great as I cannot find anything.

many thanx

obm

[Tero]

And my Monarch 8x36s I bought this year.
But the discussion was outsourcing. They may own the factory in China.

[chartwell99]

I think we should avoid to mix all things together here. Kamakura assembled binoculars for Minox and e.g. Pentax but not for Docter. Docter optics are still made in Germany, Eisfeld. You can find this tag somewhere on the box.

Steve

Steve,

I checked both my box and binoculars and there is no "Made in Germany" mention anywhere on either for Docter binoculars. Interestingly, the rainguard for my Docter 8 x 42 is identical to that sold by Eagle Optics and supplied with Celestron and other privately branded binoculars, and almost surely made in the Far East. If you are right that Analytik Jena is still manaufaturering binoculars in Eisfeld, I wonder why they don't say so. Certainly Leica and Zeiss are not bashful about identifying their respective countries of origin, even if that means Hungary in the case of the Zeiss Conquests and the predecessor Diafuns.

[ThoLa]

Steve,

I checked both my box and binoculars and there is no "Made in Germany" mention anywhere on either for Docter binoculars. Interestingly, the rainguard for my Docter 8 x 42 is identical to that sold by Eagle Optics and supplied with Celestron and other privately branded binoculars, and almost surely made in the Far East. If you are right that Analytik Jena is still manaufaturering binoculars in Eisfeld, I wonder why they don't say so. Certainly Leica and Zeiss are not bashful about identifying their respective countries of origin, even if that means Hungary in the case of the Zeiss Conquests and the predecessor Diafuns.

Here's the company history:
http://www.docter-germany.com/frontend/index.php?itid=223&st_id=223&PHPSESSID=l8tfc97a31glqvvptaks992fg5

The optical quality of their products is mediocre at best.

Tom

[chartwell99]

Here's the company history:
http://www.docter-germany.com/frontend/index.php?itid=223&st_id=223&PHPSESSID=l8tfc97a31glqvvptaks992fg5

The optical quality of their products is mediocre at best.

Tom

I actually find the optical quality of the Docter 8 x 42 to be remarkably good, with an evenly illuminated flat field, excellent contrast and commendable sharpness. Image brightness is inferior to the current crop of alpha bins but not objectionable. Holger Merlitz has a review of the Docter 8 x 42 cited in another thread which arrives at the same conclusions. All that said, however, I am still skeptical that the binocular was actually manufactured (as opposed to "designed") in Eisfeld, Germany, given the absence of a "Made in Germany" badge on either the binocular or the box.

[hinnark]

I actually find the optical quality of the Docter 8 x 42 to be remarkably good, with an evenly illuminated flat field, excellent contrast and commendable sharpness. Image brightness is inferior to the current crop of alpha bins but not objectionable. Holger Merlitz has a review of the Docter 8 x 42 cited in another thread which arrives at the same conclusions. All that said, however, I am still skeptical that the binocular was actually manufactured (as opposed to "designed") in Eisfeld, Germany, given the absence of a "Made in Germany" badge on either the binocular or the box.

Chartwell,

I saw last year a recent 8x42 Docter´s box with a writing "Made in Germany". To the rainguard: nobody knows where all the optic accessories of all the brands come from. It surely could be that the rainguard is made somewhere in Asia but not the binoculars. Why don´t ask Docter themselves?
However, I agree that the Docter 8x42 B is in its priceleague one of the best available. In fact the flatness or sharpness across the field is remarkable and can compete with the very best. With improved contrast and light transmission this binocular would raise to the top bins.

Steve

[chartwell99]

Chartwell,

I saw last year a recent 8x42 Docter´s box with a writing "Made in Germany". To the rainguard: nobody knows where all the optic accessories of all the brands come from. It surely could be that the rainguard is made somewhere in Asia but not the binoculars. Why don´t ask Docter themselves?

Steve

Good suggestion, Steve - I have emailed the Docter person identified on the website and will report the response.

[ThoLa]

Chartwell,

I saw last year a recent 8x42 Docter´s box with a writing "Made in Germany".

Steve


So the BOX was "made in Germany".
But what about the binoculars ??


If the hazy company history is read carefully, it quickly becomes clear that they do not want to be clear about their business.
Telling!

[oldbaldman]

If the labelling and marking regulations (assuming there are some) are anything like the food industry this is a problem.

"MADE IN" a country could mean "ASSEMBLED" in that country from parts made anywhere.

I recall there were problems with foreign meat labelled as "Produce of UK" to encourage UK buyers to purchase it. In fact the meat came from a Non UK animal not in the UK and it was only the final point of sale packaging that was UK and therefore entitled to be labelled and sold "Produce of UK".

I think the term "MANUFACTURED IN" is the only way to be sure where the kit originated, ie where the glass was created, the plastics were moulded and the final product asembled.

Not 100% sure though.

obm

[ThoLa]

I think the term "MANUFACTURED IN" is the only way to be sure where the kit originated, ie where the glass was created, the plastics were moulded and the final product asembled.

Not 100% sure though.

obm



??????????
This could lead to complications, I think, as multinational cooperations are normal nowadays.
Think of Leicas: they are "made in Germany" (or Portugal) but the glass comes from the USA ....

All this ought not to be a problem is quality control works and the company is paying enough attention to it.
Few companies actually do, I guess.

Tom

[chartwell99]

So the BOX was "made in Germany".
But what about the binoculars ??



Actually, the Docter box I have shows an address for the Company at Coburger Strasse 72, D-98673 Eisfeld, in Germany (just as Minox does indicating a Wetzlar address on its boxes) but the box does not say "Made in Germany" and there is no country of origin shown on the binocular (also the case with Minox). I sent an email to Docter asking the simple question of where the 42mm roof models are made and have yet to receive an answer. The only explanation I can think of for not showing Made in Germany on the binoculars is that they are, in fact, not made in Germany. Very odd.

[ThoLa]

Actually, the Docter box I have shows an address for the Company at Coburger Strasse 72, D-98673 Eisfeld, in Germany (just as Minox does indicating a Wetzlar address on its boxes)


Have a look at the telephone books of Liechtenstein or Luxemburg and compare the number of companies to the surface area of these dwarf states.
An address is .... an address.


The only explanation I can think of for not showing Made in Germany on the binoculars is that they are, in fact, not made in Germany. Very odd.

Very true.
The only companies in the optical sector that are known to have production facilities in this country are Zeiss and Leica. Even they are running factories in other countries. They say so explicitly. Why not?

The fact that some companies smoke themselves up with respect to simple business information is strange, if not telling.
There have been constant rumours about many german "brandnames" finding regularly and reliably their way onto gadgets imported from a very big country in the very far east.

Would you like to take a bet whether you'll get a satisfactory answer to your e-mail.

Minox is certainly not producing in Germany.
Wetzlar is nice a business address. It has a ring to it. It's where Zeiss Sports Optics is located, and where Leitz started a hundred years ago.
But living next doors to a famous actor does not mean you're a Hollywood star yourself, or does it?

Myths die hard.

Tom

[falcondude]

Both Nikon and Steiner have their own factory in China. So, there is really no big deal where the binoculars are made as long as they have the same high quality products

[hinnark]

Very true.
The only companies in the optical sector that are known to have production facilities in this country are Zeiss and Leica. Even they are running factories in other countries. They say so explicitly. Why not?

The fact that some companies smoke themselves up with respect to simple business information is strange, if not telling.
There have been constant rumours about many german "brandnames" finding regularly and reliably their way onto gadgets imported from a very big country in the very far east.

Would you like to take a bet whether you'll get a satisfactory answer to your e-mail.

Minox is certainly not producing in Germany.
Wetzlar is nice a business address. It has a ring to it. It's where Zeiss Sports Optics is located, and where Leitz started a hundred years ago.
But living next doors to a famous actor does not mean you're a Hollywood star yourself, or does it?

Myths die hard.

Tom

Optolyth, Steiner and Docter definitely produce binoculars or scopes in Germany as well. You find the tag "Made in Germany" on the cover of all Docter binocular brochures. Take a look at their website. But there´s indeed an exception with the brochure of the 8x42 and 10x42 B/CA. I´m looking foward for the answer of Docter.
BTW, does Zeiss tell us where they produce their scopes?

Thomas, I would like to ask you of the source of your information that Leica use glass of an American company.

Steve

[ThoLa]

Optolyth, Steiner and Docter definitely produce binoculars or scopes in Germany as well. You find the tag "Made in Germany" on the cover of all Docter binocular brochures. Take a look at their website. But there´s indeed an exception with the brochure of the 8x42 and 10x42 B/CA. I´m looking foward for the answer of Docter.
BTW, does Zeiss tell us where they produce their scopes?

Thomas, I would like to ask you of the source of your information that Leica use glass of an American company.

Steve

Hi Steve!

"BTW, does Zeiss tell us where they produce their scopes?"

Who cares?
Quality control works and performance is excellent.
Zeiss don't make it a secret that part of their production is made in Hungary.
I do not know whether the Diascopes come from there, or if they are assembled here. I have do not have prejudices. If they assemble according to stringent tolerances it's okay with me.
I think that the more prestigious T*FL models are made in Germany, but I don't know for certain.

Quality counts.
If optical performance is mediocre, german mediocrity is just as bad as anywhere's mediocrity.

Leica uses glass (at least certain specialities) made by Corning (http://www.corning.com/). Got this info directly from Leica's tech dept.

Zeiss gets its glass from Schott.

I don't think there's a gradient in quality between them.
At least they charge us appreciable sums for glittering little pieces that would hardly yield the bottom of a drinking glass if re-meltet. |;|

The bottom line is: we have to admit that "made in Germany" simply isn't anymore what it used to be decades ago.

So says a native son who was "made in Germany" at a time when it really meant something!

[hinnark]

Hi Steve!

"BTW, does Zeiss tell us where they produce their scopes?"

Who cares?


Thomas,

I agree that the origin of optics isn´t that important as long as the quality controll works as it should be. If this is the case for any given manufactorer we don´t know exactly since this kind of assessment requires a greater number of samples for correct statistics. As far as I see this greater number is available only for the manufactorers themselves. So the only choice the consumer has is to believe them or not.
I was referring to your post #26 where you stated that companies like Zeiss say explicitly where the optics were built. That is true for their Victory bins (Made in Germany) and their Conquest (Made in Hungary) series but not for their spotting scopes (Made by Carl Zeiss).

Steve

[ThoLa]

Thomas,

I agree that the origin of optics isn´t that important as long as the quality controll works as it should be. If this is the case for any given manufactorer we don´t know exactly since this kind of assessment requires a greater number of samples for correct statistics. As far as I see this greater number is available only for the manufactorers themselves. So the only choice the consumer has is to believe them or not.
I was referring to your post #26 where you stated that companies like Zeiss say explicitly where the optics were built. That is true for their Victory bins (Made in Germany) and their Conquest (Made in Hungary) series but not for their spotting scopes (Made by Carl Zeiss).

Steve


You are right, of course, as regards statistics.
The "belief factor" takes effect in practically all walks of life.

And compared to what other industries (the computer mafia, to name but one example) try to make us believe, we are very well off with the optics industry.

Some companies have built a very good reputation while others have not.

You are correct with respect to your "made in ... " listing. But I am not in a habit of splitting hairs with a microtome over this.
I have a Diascope and it is fabulous. I do not regularly ponder the deep philosophical problem if has come into existence in Wetzlar or in Budapest.

Compare the car industrie, for example. Parts for even the most luxurious cars come from all over the world and are pieced together ..... sorry, are meticulously assembled by skilled craftsmen somewhere.
The engine for the current Rolls-Royce is made by BMW and is shipped to England. Somehow it seems to make ECONOMICAL sense.
So it does not come as a surprise that L and Z (the optical equivalents to the above mentioned cars) get their parts from overseas.

Accessories like bags, straps etc. are not made by any manufacturer anymore but are bought from specialist suppliers. Just compare the straps of L to the ones of Z. Very, very similar. But why is the L strap four times the price of a Z strap?

If we did not have the arms race of economical competition, monopolistic hype would have us reach even more deeply into our pockets.

Trying to remain always common-sensed,
Tom

[hinnark]

Thomas,

to the "belief factor". I´d suggest you do a short search in this forum with the keyword "sample variation". Common sense surely doesn´t mean to close one´s eyes to a problem many people had observed.
I don´t know why the Leica strap is that much more expensive. I would think once it comes with the binocular you´ll never need a new one. Those straps are really durable. However, IMO the strap that comes with the Leica Ultravids is due to its ergonomical form currently the best available. The Ultravid strap is not identical to the Trinovid´s one. The Trinovid neoprene strap is of that just straight form like the ones that come with Zeiss and Swarovski bins. The Ultravid strap is slightly curved and fits perferctly around my neck and shoulders. This design is superior because of its better weight allocation. This is neither splitting hairs nor nitpicking but simply practical experience after a long day of birding. ;)


Steve

[chartwell99]

Optolyth, Steiner and Docter definitely produce binoculars or scopes in Germany as well. You find the tag "Made in Germany" on the cover of all Docter binocular brochures. Take a look at their website. But there´s indeed an exception with the brochure of the 8x42 and 10x42 B/CA. I´m looking foward for the answer of Docter.
Steve

No answer yet from Docter and I have a feeling none will be forthcoming. I wonder of one of you folks in Germany would be willing to pick up the phone and call Docter to ask the question directly.

[ThoLa]

Thomas,

to the "belief factor". I´d suggest you do a short search in this forum with the keyword "sample variation".

Steve

WHAT FOR?
ALL I WOULD GET FROM BURNING TIME IS ANECDOTAL REPORTS WHICH ARE MEANINGLESS BECAUSE - as an expert on statistics remarked so well:

"f this is the case for any given manufactorer we don´t know exactly since this kind of assessment requires a greater number of samples for correct statistics. As far as I see this greater number is available only for the manufactorers themselves."


WHO HAS DONE STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT COMPARISONS?
Next, in addition to a large enough sample size, you need to do REPRODUCIBLE MEASUREMENTS according to STANDARDIZED MEASUREMENT PROTOCOLS!

None of the contributions on this or any other WWW talk box gets anywhere near meeting industrial or scientific standards.


"I don´t know why the Leica strap is that much more expensive. "

I'll help you.
I happen to know.
They call it "ripping off".
You pay for the little red badge, and for the myth.
You you dearly.

And this is neither company-specific or product-specific.
It is kind of funny: by churning out the mind-boggling sums of money WE actually pay for the hype we are brain-washed with.

Tom

[ThoLa]

I wonder of one of you folks in Germany would be willing to pick up the phone and call Docter to ask the question directly.

Funny idea.
The result will be the same as with your e-mailing.
Don't worry: 10 yrs from now no-one will remember that company ever existed.

Cassandra

[chartwell99]

Funny idea.
The result will be the same as with your e-mailing.
Don't worry: 10 yrs from now no-one will remember that company ever existed.

Cassandra

Here's a late breaking development - Docter responded with the following:

"thank you for your e-mail. These binoculars are manufactured under high DOCTER quality standards and important controls and checkings. The name Analytik Jena AG is the name of our head-company and situated in Jena, we are situated in Eisfeld and produce the DOCTER products."

My bet for the manufacturing country of origin for the Docter 42mm models is China, but it looks like we will never know for sure. Still and all, very nice binoculars. Nonetheless Docter is being more than a little disingenuous about their German products and, to use a Texas expression, I think I now know all I need to know about this particular subject.

[ThoLa]

"thank you for your e-mail. These binoculars are manufactured under high DOCTER quality standards and important controls and checkings. The name Analytik Jena AG is the name of our head-company and situated in Jena, we are situated in Eisfeld and produce the DOCTER products."




From a linguistic point of view I'd call this reply:
hazy
blurred
indistinct
fuzzy
foggy
unfocussed


From a personal point of view I'd call it:
exactly what I would have expected.



At least you now know for sure that "only the boxes are made in Shermanee" (I meant it as joke ........) - probably from recycled cardbord.

Saying sorry from the land of (xxxxx)*,
Tom

*fill in as deems you appropriate

[Leif]

From a linguistic point of view I'd call this reply:
hazy
blurred
indistinct
fuzzy
foggy
unfocussed


It is completely truthful but fails to answer the question. But we can all read between the lines. Many companies do not like it to be known that they outsource to another country, such as Japan or China.

Personally I do not care where they are made as long as the quality of design and construction is sufficient to merit the price. Some buyers have a hang up about a binocular not being made in Germany, as if "Made in Germany" implies higher quality. I think it used to. I do not believe that it necessarily does anymore due to the high labour costs. As far as I am concerned "Designed in Germany and manufactured in [insert country] according to [insert company]'s quality control standards" is fine, and probably means good quality for a good price. Unless the manufacturer simply uses this as a way to charge European prices, and hence make increased profit.

In fact Zeiss's latest lenses for the Sony camera are Zeiss designed, and outsourced to Cosina in Japan, and by all accounts they are very high quality.

I have heard that the law is rather lax regarding the interpretation of the "Made in Germany" tag. For example, watches made in Switzerland that carry the "Made in Switzerland" tag have to have by law at least 50% by value of the components made in Switzerland. Most watches made in Germany with the "Made in Germany" tag carry a movement made elsewhere, usually Switzerland.

[ThoLa]

But we can all read between the lines.

AH, SO THAT'S WHERE THE INFORMATION IS.
CRYPTIC!

Some buyers have a hang up about a binocular not being made in Germany, as if "Made in Germany" implies higher quality.

THOSE WHICH ARE STILL MADE HERE ARE SUPERIOR, I AM AFRAID.
THE "COSTS OF LABOUR" ARGUMENT IS PURE BRAINWASHING AND DO NOT HOLD UP TO SCRUTINY. IT WAS DISPROVED BY EXPERTS IN ECONOMY.


As far as I am concerned "Designed in Germany and manufactured in [insert country] according to [insert company]'s quality control standards" is fine, and probably means good quality for a good price.

THAT'S WHAT MAKES THE ZEISS CONQUEST VERY GOOD VALUE FOR MONEY, FOR INSTANCE.

Unless the manufacturer simply uses this as a way to charge European prices, and hence make increased profit.

THIS SEEMS TO BE TRUE.
IN PARTICULAR FOR TWO COMPANIES.


In fact Zeiss's latest lenses for the Sony camera are Zeiss designed, and outsourced to Cosina in Japan, and by all accounts they are very high quality.

COSINA BUILT A CAMERA (THE ZEISS IKON). TO MY KNOWLEDGE THEY ARE NOT MAKING OPTICAL COMPONENTS. THEY ARE MADE IN EUROPE.

in general, Japan suffers from the same disease as Germany. Many japanese companies "sauce" out to other asian countries.

Items that are still "made in Japan" tend to have a very good quality.
But their numbers are dwindling.

Tom

[Marko_]

we are situated in Eisfeld and produce the DOCTER products."

My bet for the manufacturing country of origin for the Docter 42mm models is China,

My Pocket Oxford Dictionary tells me that "produce" means "make" or "manufacture", among other things.

Should I change my dictionary? Maybe I'm not reading between the lines in the right way? :h?:

Regards,
Marko

[chartwell99]

My Pocket Oxford Dictionary tells me that "produce" means "make" or "manufacture", among other things.

Should I change my dictionary? Maybe I'm not reading between the lines in the right way? :h?:

Regards,
Marko

The following is from a current ad from the sole U.S. distributor of Docter binoculars:

"Brand New in the Box Docter Sports Optics 10x42 B/CF Binoculars. Made in Germany. The quality of Docter rivals that of Leica, Swarovski, and Zeiss."

As I have said before, I do think the quality of these Docter binoculars are excellent, but I find it both telling and galling that both Docter and Minox feel they must masquerade as German products when they are not. By contrast, Nikon, Leica and Zeiss are are clear and forthright as to where certain of their models are made (China, Portugal and Hungary, respectively).

[ThoLa]

My Pocket Oxford Dictionary tells me that "produce" means "make" or "manufacture", among other things.

Should I change my dictionary? Maybe I'm not reading between the lines in the right way? :h?:

Regards,
Marko



produce (noun): agricultural products and especially fresh fruits and vegetables as distinguished from grain and other staple crops.

Fresh (!) from the dictionary.
Are binos harvested in summer - like tomatoes - or in the autumn - like mushrooms?

[ThoLa]

The quality of Docter rivals that of Leica, Swarovski, and Zeiss."



3:-) 3:-) 3:-) 3:-) 3:-) 3:-)
That is as much an exaggeration as to claim an horse carriage rivals a Porsche 911.


There was a high informative test last year which featured the 10x42bcf.

It can be downloaded for free from the Leica website !!!!!

T

[hinnark]

Thomas,

are your opinions about binoculars of Minox, Docter and some other based on your own examinations or just on that particular test report? In other words: Have you ever looked through one of the binoculars mentioned above with your own eyes?

Steve

[Leif]

Some buyers have a hang up about a binocular not being made in Germany, as if "Made in Germany" implies higher quality.

THOSE WHICH ARE STILL MADE HERE ARE SUPERIOR, I AM AFRAID.
THE "COSTS OF LABOUR" ARGUMENT IS PURE BRAINWASHING AND DO NOT HOLD UP TO SCRUTINY. IT WAS DISPROVED BY EXPERTS IN ECONOMY.


Aren't many Leicas made in Portugal and aren't they of high quality? Do you have a reference for the 'expert' analysis?



In fact Zeiss's latest lenses for the Sony camera are Zeiss designed, and outsourced to Cosina in Japan, and by all accounts they are very high quality.

COSINA BUILT A CAMERA (THE ZEISS IKON). TO MY KNOWLEDGE THEY ARE NOT MAKING OPTICAL COMPONENTS. THEY ARE MADE IN EUROPE.



Nooo. The following are Leica mount lenses (ZM) designed by Zeiss and made by Cosina:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/zeiss-m-mount.shtml

They are doing them for a range of mounts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeiss#Lenses

They do not do Canon EOS because that requires electronic couplings and Canon probably will not license the technology.


in general, Japan suffers from the same disease as Germany. Many japanese companies "sauce" out to other asian countries.

Items that are still "made in Japan" tend to have a very good quality.
But their numbers are dwindling.

Tom

Yes Nikon have a factory in Thailand where for example the D200 camera is made. I suspect they also have Chinese factories. The quality is high.

Nissan have a car factory in the UK, which is one of the most productive in Europe, and the quality is high. The management is important.

I am not sure what the disease is. Germany is still highly respected for its high quality engineering: cars, binoculars, lenses, watches, and so on. I wish Britain could achieve the prowess of Germany. We have the talent, but our management stinks.

[hinnark]

WHAT FOR?
ALL I WOULD GET FROM BURNING TIME IS ANECDOTAL REPORTS WHICH ARE MEANINGLESS BECAUSE - as an expert on statistics remarked so well:

"f this is the case for any given manufactorer we don´t know exactly since this kind of assessment requires a greater number of samples for correct statistics. As far as I see this greater number is available only for the manufactorers themselves."


WHO HAS DONE STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT COMPARISONS?
Next, in addition to a large enough sample size, you need to do REPRODUCIBLE MEASUREMENTS according to STANDARDIZED MEASUREMENT PROTOCOLS!

None of the contributions on this or any other WWW talk box gets anywhere near meeting industrial or scientific standards.

Tom

Tom,

the suggestion wasn´t meant as to do a scientific research. It was made because you with all reservation needed can learn a lot that way about birding optics. In this thread for example you´ve already learned that Leica and Zeiss aren´t the only companies that produce binoculars in Germany. I think there´s a lot more to discover here in Birdforum. One of the first things might be that it is not usual to shout in capitals all the time.

Steve

[Leif]

Tom,

tOne of the first things might be that it is not usual to shout in capitals all the time.

Steve

It used to be possible to shout in really big letters.

But then they realised that we (me?) could not be trusted and restricted the font size.

There is also Steiner who make binoculars in Germany. They seem to have cornered government orders, but I was not impressed by the 1 pair of Steiner roof prisms I (sadly) used to own. They still have not realised that eye tubes are important for ease of use for us eyeglass wearers.

[oldbaldman]

as has been hinted at and suggested at here many times, it is the quality of the product that matters above all else.

And any manufacturer/maker/assembler/importer, or whatever you call it, will not last long in this "oh so critical", and extremely knowlegeable and commercial world if their products are not up to the standard of comparably priced models.

I have learned so much from this tho', many thanx. IMHO it would be worth posting something at the top of the binoculars section so that all could see where and who supplies/makes/manufacturs different makes and models.

I suspect that many makers are pumping out cheap straps and pouches capitalising on their brand name and a badge.

obm

[CHenry]

Look at what these same manufacturers charge for photographic accessories with their own badging, products no better in quality than third party-branded goods (and why should they be when many are made by the same suppliers).

Nothing new there. The European makers do this as do the premium makers from elsewhere.

[hinnark]

It used to be possible to shout in really big letters.

But then they realised that we (me?) could not be trusted and restricted the font size.

There is also Steiner who make binoculars in Germany. They seem to have cornered government orders, but I was not impressed by the 1 pair of Steiner roof prisms I (sadly) used to own. They still have not realised that eye tubes are important for ease of use for us eyeglass wearers.

Arrgh - there´s a awful beep in my ears.

Seems that Steiner is working on modern binoculars. They have a new series called "Discovery" with a Swaro EL like design. Has anybody tried them yet?
Here is a link: http://www.steiner.de/index.cfm?lg_neu=en&DSN=steiner&FEATURE_ID=48&LOGOUT=no&FUSEACTION=produktfeature&ARTIKELNUMMER=8102&LG=de

Steve

[Marko_]

produce (noun): agricultural products and especially fresh fruits and vegetables as distinguished from grain and other staple crops.

Fresh (!) from the dictionary.
Are binos harvested in summer - like tomatoes - or in the autumn - like mushrooms?


"we are situated in Eisfeld and produce the DOCTER products."

If you think that's a noun, you should think again!

Marko

[falcondude]

I think this thread has been seriously hijacked from its original topic. :D

[Leif]

Arrgh - there´s a awful beep in my ears.

Seems that Steiner is working on modern binoculars. They have a new series called "Discovery" with a Swaro EL like design. Has anybody tried them yet?
Here is a link: http://www.steiner.de/index.cfm?lg_neu=en&DSN=steiner&FEATURE_ID=48&LOGOUT=no&FUSEACTION=produktfeature&ARTIKELNUMMER=8102&LG=de

Steve

Here is a rather brief review:

http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Steiner-Discovery-binoculars-reviewed

It seems rather shallow to me. I suspect that a future issue of Bird Watching magazine will have a review.

[CHenry]

The Steiner Peregrine XP is the new model you are referring to. It has an open bridge design like the Swarovski ELs and the Bushnell Elites. Pricing is at the level of other "alpha" class binoculars from Europe.

It seems that Steiner, like Leupold and Brunton have decided to cross over from their traditional hunting sports market to the birder market. With hunting on the wane in many places, that is probably a good business idea.

Many of Steiner's designs are variations of their Milspec porro glasses. The new roofs seem to be a departure to a design favored by bird enthusiasts. The Peregrine XP seems to be spec'ed well for that, and the few reports I have read of their quality seems deserving of their price point. Appearance-wise, they seem a little odd, with the side-shielded eye cups and rubber molding that seems a little Ridley Scott-like.

[Leif]

Some years ago they tried to break into the birding market with the Rocky S. It carried a high price but the performance was not there: slightly soft images and rubber eye cups being the main weaknesses.

I bet the price will drop substantially over the next 6 months. However I speak as someone who has not used the new Discovery range.

[CLRobles]

I know this is a revival of a very old thread but all my Docter Bins had "Made in Germany" printed right on the bin? The Nobilems have it right next to the tripod adapter screw hole and the 10x40 aspherics have it in the same place..... So as the Nobilem line encompasses at least 70% of their line and the aspherics, when they were made, along with their B/GA's completed it I'm not sure why the line of questioning?

[falcondude]

I know this is a revival of a very old thread but all my Docter Bins had "Made in Germany" printed right on the bin? The Nobilems have it right next to the tripod adapter screw hole and the 10x40 aspherics have it in the same place..... So as the Nobilem line encompasses at least 70% of their line and the aspherics, when they were made, along with their B/GA's completed it I'm not sure why the line of questioning?

which post were you referring to? Is Docter a new company or a brand affiliated with big 3?

[CLRobles]

which post were you referring to? Is Docter a new company or a brand affiliated with big 3?
Docter is Docter and is not affiliated with anyone. They acquired the Carl Ziess Jena plant and name a while back and do continue to make some of their bins but they are not owned by anyone....

[andrej 4153]

I got the same informations about docter like CLRobles.
If they were owned by another company there would probably be a much better promotion.

[CLRobles]

andrej, Now that you have had your SE's for a week or so what is your impression of them vs the Docters of yours?

[andrej 4153]

CLRobles, i didn`t have enough time to compare the binos.
But I`m really suprised about the nikon SE because of the ergonomics. They seem to be created for my hands. Very sharp, good details, and natural color. No blackouts.
The weight is ok. So, all in all a very nice bino for birding.
It`s perfecct for bird identification.

The docter is the bino i use to follow the birds for longer time. I can hold it for a long time without any problems.
For the FOV the docter is better than the Nikon SE (i am comparing 8x to 10x, that`s not fair).

For the last days i had used the Nikon SE more often. But it`s warm and nice summer weather now.

[andrej 4153]

One thing more. The docter is much better to focuse. I can focussing very fast and fine. To focuse the Nikon SE is just a bit more work.

[CLRobles]

I also think this is true. With my old 10x40 aspheric Docters they always came right up and gave a huge beautiful view that always seem to be in focus???? They were just a favorite of mine and I regret getting ride of them... Like you said I also have to take several sec getting my first view in order with the SE's but once there.... What a sight!

[The Otical Apprentice]

Good Evening Ladies and Gentlemen... I formerly worked for Bushnell Div. Of Bausch and Lomb. I was employed there for almost 13 years and was apprenticed to Mr. Al Akin, Senior Engineer. I have not been directly connected with the industry for many years, since they moved to Kansas in fact, but I still have all my notes and a wide store of memories and optical understanding.

Kamakura was in fact one of the primary suppliers for Bushnell optics. They also supplied for many others toward the end of my association with them. I have always suspected that Bushnell lost much of their hold in the market when they lost their primary Research and Development Staff as a result of their move to Kansas.

I would welcome any contact or questions you may have and will try to get to them as quickly as I can, but I have limited access time and can not check e-mail every day. I am sure that there are many of you that would remember me from the Bushnell R&D Department, Tours, Visits, Projects and Birding Trips.

The Optical Apprentice

[chris lewis]

Hi Optical Apprentice. Good to have your knowledge. I posted this originally in the 'Bushnell - Baush and Lomb' forum but got no replies.
Can you confirm that the Bushnell 10x42 Discoverers [ Kamakura ?] are the 'same' as the 'older' Meade Montanas [Bresser Montana in Europe] the 'Older' Weaver Grand Slam's, the RSPB HG.PC and the Fujinon CD's [All below ]. The Bushnells may 'differ' with having XTR coatings and PC-3 prisms ? But I believe they have the same optics and specs ? Any clarification would be appreciated.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/weaver-b...am-849628.html

http://www.opticsplanet.net/meade-10x42-montana.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...specifications

http://www.binoculars-uk.co.uk/acata...-pc-10x42.html

Chris

[The Otical Apprentice]

Hello Chris... I don't have time to check the links out right now but I will take a look. I have not had much direct MFGR contact for many years but I may be able to recognize the work.

Also it seems that the system has dropped the "P" in Optical, drove me nuts to log in, do you know who I could contact to get that fixed?

I will get back to you when i have had a chance to review your links. Thanks for the response!

[NWBirder]

There are three or four factories in China, a couple in Japan that assemble from Chinese parts, and even an attempt to do the same from Malaysia and Taiwan. That, in a nutshell, is the Asian optical business

from the thread below
http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=384301&postcount=6

The Optical Apprentice, does Kamakura have factories in China?