Leica & Swarovski inherent faults

[Paul Godolphin]

So most Ultravids are KNOWN to have jerky, stuttering focus wheel actions! Thanks a million to Jim Duffie for drawing my attention to this on NorthEastBirding website, and for attaching several examples from exasperated owners on the BirdForum pages. I had no idea that this was going on! In fact, like several other disappointed writers, I would never have purchased Leica binoculars if I’d known that they have a built-in design problem. After more research I find that the company are well aware of the fault and regularly repair the Ultravid models by dissembling the focus drive in the centre-column and inserting a Teflon washer. Apparently (unlike most other makes, which are assembled with special grease) Ultravids are put-together DRY. The aim was to avoid variations in grease viscosity making the knob too easy in hot temperatures and stiffer/slower on very cold days. Nice idea, but it hasn’t worked, and the service departments are retro-fitting the Teflon washers to smooth out the jerky dry spindles.
But what I’m so bloody angry about after spending over £1100 on a pair of bins is, that the fault has existed since 2003/04 (see various owner reports on the web) BUT LEICA HAVE CONTINUED TO SELL THEM to us, knowing that they are faulty!! They’ve had four years to put it right but are happy to take our money for a known faulty product. I’ve just dumped all my Swarovski gear for the same reason – all their new EL models have a big HOLE in the focus wheel, right through to inside. And yet Swarovski simply deny that it’s a problem, and continue to market them. How can they be waterproof and nitrogen-filled when you can look through a gap in the bridge and see inside the guts of the binoculars through it??
We seem to be getting ‘taken to the cleaners’ by these manufacturers. If only good old Zeiss were still making my beloved Dialyts. I looked through a pair the other day and they were still as good as the best of today’s offerings, and half the size. Pity their new top-of-the-range models have optics that look like a Vaseline tube and the handling characteristics of a pineapple….
Cheers Paul Godolphin

[ingle1970]

sorry about your bad luck with your ultravid . i own a 8*32 and its fine , touch-wood !. what really annoys me is when you buy an swarovski el and hd scope and soon afterwards they add "easyclean" , now that is annoying !!!!.

[griffin]

Deja Vu ?

[Swissboy]

. what really annoys me is when you buy an swarovski el and hd scope and soon afterwards they add "easyclean" , now that is annoying !!!!.

Well, that is what happens due to progress, whereas the other complaints have got nothing to do with progress. I can't judge the Swaro complaint, but the Leica complaint has really been going on for so long that one would think Leica should have been able to come up with a CONSISTENTLY smooth focusser. Some individual samples are silky smooth.

[Robert / Seattle]

Well, that is what happens due to progress, whereas the other complaints have got nothing to do with progress. I can't judge the Swaro complaint, but the Leica complaint has really been going on for so long that one would think Leica should have been able to come up with a CONSISTENTLY smooth focusser. Some individual samples are silky smooth.

I have four Ultravids and one Duovid. All but one Ultravid have exceptionally smooth focussing knobs. The one Ultravid with just a bit of excess play has been sent to Leica Service Center for "smoothening" and will be back in a couple of weeks. Not to bad, all things considered. The quality of these optics more than justifies the rare cosmetic or convenience servicing in my opinion.

Meanwhile, the objective end rubber armoring on my Zeiss FL 42's is held on with tape (both sides). But boy, did I do a beautiful tape job or what?

[Robert / Seattle]

PS.

Paul,

You are nevertheless justified in your frustration. When one pays an exorbitant amount of money for quality optics one expects the chassis to be satisfyingly well constructed. A fixable "wiggly" knob is not the end of the world, though -- at least its the consequence of an ambitious thermal tolerance allowance. But still, it would be nice if a service correction wasn't necessary.

Robert /Seattle

[Big Phil]

If only good old Zeiss were still making my beloved Dialyts. I looked through a pair the other day and they were still as good as the best of today’s offerings, and half the size.

Were they the rose-tinted model?. As I recall the Dialyts were leaky and they had an annoying 'barreling' effect when you panned. And they certainly weren't half the size of a pair of ultravids.

I've recently bought a pair of 8 x 32 Ultravids, the focusing is smooth, the optics crystal clear, weight c. 500 grams and they are tiny yet feel 'bombproof'. Sure the price is mind-numbing, but if you must buy premium brands in any walk of life you will get stung.

My well loved pair of Swarovski's which the Ultravids replaced survived (among other things) a direct hit from a large boulder in an accident on the hill, followed immediately by a 20 ft vertical drop!. I can vouch for Swarovski's build quality!.

[iporali]

Were they the rose-tinted model?. As I recall the Dialyts were leaky and they had an annoying 'barreling' effect when you panned. And they certainly weren't half the size of a pair of ultravids.

I don't think there were any other kind of Dialyts (8x30 & 10x40). They also had poor light transmission, contrast, eye relief and close focus - and an inherent design fault that caused their eyecups to break sooner or later if you used them with glasses. They did look better than the new FLs though.

Ilkka

[Paul Godolphin]

THANKS FOR THE REPLIES GUYS, NOW CLOSING THE THESE THREADS.
My fault – I want very much to attach the photos to the posting (especially in view of the disbelief voiced by some respondents about these widespread and serious faults), but I just can’t find the button on the forum that does it. This is a complex and sophisticated website for a ‘newbie’ like me! So I guess that my ineptitude in ‘proving my point’ with proper evidence is contributing to the arguments that have been generated. My apologies to all users.
HOWEVER – let me say this: I am very saddened that some responses have been to suggest that I may be obsessively pre-occupied with the binoculars and wether they’re any good or not, and maybe should “Get a life” and forget about the faults, get out birding, and ‘chill out’. All I can say is that I WISH somebody had taken the trouble to publish THEIR findings before I wasted several thousand pounds on faulty glasses that others already knew were duff. All my postings were trying to achieve was to warn others in the way I would have liked to be! And forgive me, but this IS the purpose of a binocular review forum isn’t it? So how come some of you think we should just relax, accept the faults and get on with our lives? I’m surprised that anyone with that enviably ‘laid-back’ attitude is here surfing a specialist binocular site, if they’re not really interested?
I tried for a couple of years to warn potential buyers about these faults by writing to Birding and Optical magazines, but editors declined to publish because they could lose lucrative advertising and sponsorship from the ‘big two’ binocular manufacturers. Hence the ‘news blackout’ is paid-for by the very companies who are selling faulty glasses. I sincerely believed that posting here was doing everyone a huge favour. OK, you’ve made it clear that I’m wrong. Maybe you’ve got shares in the binocular companies. I’m off to chill out. You guys enjoy your faulty bins, you’ve put me in my place. Matter closed, you won’t see a post from me on here again.
But thanks anyway for responding.
All the best Paul

[iporali]

Paul,

I am really sorry if you were left with feeling that we didn't take your message seriously. You said that the Leica Ultravids are faulty because of a jerky focuser, the Swaro ELs because of a visible hole in the focus wheel, that the Swaro compacts are poorly manufactured, the Zeiss FLs look like a vaseline tube and that the Zeiss Conquests are 1000% better (than the Swaro compacts) and that the Dialyts are as good as the best of today's offering. Don't you think those were pretty hard claims - and that not everyone might immediately agree with you?

I don't own any of the above mentioned binoculars, but here is what I understand about the issues:
- Ultravid focuser: This has been discussed several times during the last few years and the threads can be easily accessed by browsing the Leica subforum. Apparently Leica do use lubrication now, but some still seem to have a jerky focuser - which sure must be annoying, but thanks to this kind of forums, potential buyers can now pay attention to this feature before laying out the money. I have tried a few pairs, but haven't found a pair with unacceptable "jerkiness". I know many Ultravid owners who are very happy with their binoculars and who certainly wouldn't call the product "faulty". My Nikon HGs have a "buttery smooth" focuser, but it feels like they have hidden some play with loads of vaseline. They sure feel good, and I have no problems yet, but I am not sure how well they will work in the long term.
- Hole in the Swaro ELs: I believe your observation is true, but I don't think you can see inside the optics barrels through that hole. If the ELs were not air tight by design, American lawyers would surely have put them out of business already. The EL's focus mechanism is mediated inside the barrels with two rotating axis which move the focusing lens. I would guess that the barrels themselves are sealed instead of focus gearing. See the cutout http://www.swarovskioptik.com/index.php?l=en&css=&c=produkte&nID=x434b769e932b90.44843491&querschnitt=1&detail=en1129102236__ID434cbb9cbaff88.00618154&produktname=EL
- You are totally entitled to your opinions about the Swaro compacts, Zeiss FLs, Conquests and the Dialyts. I just read your message as a statement of facts (which may be due to my non-native English) - which are not supported by my own experiences.

I really hope you don't feel unwelcome to this friendly forum. Findings like yours are always very welcome - and may often start very useful discussions. But sentences like: "LEICA HAVE CONTINUED TO SELL THEM to us, knowing that they are faulty!!" or "And yet Swarovski simply deny that it’s a problem, and continue to market them" may rather sound like "final words" and not be the best possible starters for constructive criticism.

Best regards,

Ilkka :t:

[Sancho]

........I just read your message as a statement of facts (which may be due to my non-native English).........
Ilkka :t:

A bit off-thread here, but Ilkka, I find your advice and explanations in English elegant and extremely helpful, as well as written in a kindly and understanding tone. You Finnish guys put all us native English speakers to shame....I mean, have you ever met anyone who writes in Suomi (is that what Finnish is called? Or does it actually mean Finland?) as well as you do in English? I´ll wager not.

[hinnark]

A bit off-thread here, but Ilkka, I find your advice and explanations in English elegant and extremely helpful, as well as written in a kindly and understanding tone. You Finnish guys put all us native English speakers to shame....I mean, have you ever met anyone who writes in Suomi (is that what Finnish is called? Or does it actually mean Finland?) as well as you do in English? I´ll wager not.

Sancho,

I agree. Maybe that´s why Finland was Number 1 in PISA survey : )

Steve.

[iporali]

Thanks guys - flattering to hear. But I think "we Finnish guys" owe Kimmo Absetz a couple of pints for "our" good reputation B (: . For most of us, however, the tone of English text is indeed very difficult. And I am still sorry for the outcome of this thread.

Ilkka

[normjackson]

Hear, hear :clap: The boys done good. And seem to be redressing the balance created by the only joke I know about Finnish national stereotype. I dare say all Finns know it as a joke made about some other Nationality or maybe region.
Two Finns (lets call them Ilkka and Kimmo) go birding every Sunday morning all through the year, come rain or shine (or snow, ice, blizzards, ruddy freezing temperatures etc etc you get the picture). One day Ilkka slips on an invisible patch of ice and goes crashing down, his Swarovski scope smashing against the ground. Getting to his feet, he brushes himself down and says (in his native tongue) "It's slippy there." About a year later, following the same path Kimmo slips on exactly the same patch of black ice landing awkwardly on his angled Kowa 883. After drawing breath and giving his scope the once over, getting to his feet he says "Yes it is."

[postcardcv]

Amazing set of threads, hard to believe in places...

The Leica focusing syetm is well know, yes it can be jerky on some bins, but it's by design, not a design fault. The 'hole' in the ELs clearly is by design too and not a fault... it obviously doesn't stop them being waterproof, as hundreds of satisfied customers can no doubt testify. As was pointed out somewhere if they sold them as waterproof when they weren't they'd soon be facing legal action. As for Zeiss FLs having "optics that look like a Vaseline tube", if that's true I think we all need to get shopping for vaseline.

I think the think that amazes me most is that the original poster bought Leica Ultravids, Swarovski ELs and Swarovski compacts and was not happy with any of them. If you don't like them, then why buy them?

[hinnark]

With things like that hole I would suggest to contact the manufactorer first. He knows his product better than anybody else. Speculations don´t make any sense IMHO. My experiences asking at least Leica, Swarovski and Zeiss are pretty good.

Steve

[Bubbs]

The Leica focusing syetm is well know, yes it can be jerky on some bins, but it's by design, not a design fault.

So those with smooth focussing are faulty?

[Big Phil]

So those with smooth focussing are faulty?

|:D| I'm sending mine back to get the lumps put in.

[matt green]

I'm assuming certain aspects of the ultravids final part of manufacture involve being assembled by hand, and by several different Leica technicians??

Wouldn't this account for the small amount of variation in focus tension?

Matt

[Bubbs]

I've experienced the notchy feel of some Leica's and they are b***** awful. Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to why this is a design goody and if they are that good why don't all bins have a notchy wheel?

PULL THE OTHER ONE.

[griffin]

I've experienced the notchy feel of some Leica's and they are b***** awful. Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to why this is a design goody and if they are that good why don't all bins have a notchy wheel?

PULL THE OTHER ONE.


This thread is as a direct result of in my opinion dellusionsal accusations against Leica (and particularly Swarovski) products and how those of us who are happy with them must be idiots for putting up with such "faults". I don't need to justify or prove to you or anyone else how good they are as long as I am happy, which I am.

The reasons for the "notchy" focus wheel as you put it are well documented. There IS a reason for it - you may not like it, understand it or need it.

You and the forum poster are clearly never going to be convinced or believe anythings us Leica or Swaro owners say, so what is your objective ? Just don't buy them and put a sock in it, ok ? - however please don't try to deny those of us who are not fickle the right to enjoy our own bins.

Linz

PS my focus wheel is a smooth as a baby's proverbial, but then I spend more time 'focussing' on what I am looking at.

[hinnark]

There is a saying "never argue with a fool".



That is quite true. I wonder who benefits from Leica and Swaro bashing.

Steve

[Big Phil]

That is quite true. I wonder who benefits from Leica and Swaro bashing.

Steve

Zeiss

[iporali]

I've experienced the notchy feel of some Leica's and they are b***** awful. Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to why this is a design goody and if they are that good why don't all bins have a notchy wheel?
I think it is just Leica's decision to avoid or minimize lubrication. It may have an advantage to be relatively service free and insensitive to temperatures, but it may also reveal more easily any imperfections in metalwork. I don't think notchy wheel is ever a goody, but in my experience they usually are not "notchy", but sticky - the wheel takes some power to start rotating, but when it does, it is smooth and very "responsive". I don't doubt the reports that the wheel movement may sometimes be irritatingly uneven - and in these cases it is IMHO a clear fault in QC. It is up to a buyer to decide whether the focuser is good or bad - I prefer more lubricated focusers, but would certainly not be put off by typical "sticky, but smooth" Leica focusers.

Best regards,

Ilkka

[griffin]

That is quite true. I wonder who benefits from Leica and Swaro bashing.

Steve


People who resent those of us who own them enjoying them !

Back to your "pishy" wee bins I say


Linz

[griffin]

Zeiss


Who are they ? Do they not make microscopes ?

[iporali]

Zeiss

That hybrid of a vaseline tube and a pineapple? How about Nikon - or those Chinese cheapies?

Ilkka

[Bubbs]

I think it is just Leica's decision to avoid or minimize lubrication. It may have an advantage to be relatively service free and insensitive to temperatures, but it may also reveal more easily any imperfections in metalwork. I don't think notchy wheel is ever a goody, but in my experience they usually are not "notchy", but sticky - the wheel takes some power to start rotating, but when it does, it is smooth and very "responsive". I don't doubt the reports that the wheel movement may sometimes be irritatingly uneven - and in these cases it is IMHO a clear fault in QC. It is up to a buyer to decide whether the focuser is good or bad - I prefer more lubricated focusers, but would certainly not be put off by typical "sticky, but smooth" Leica focusers.

Best regards,

Ilkka

Thanks....you've just made my point for me (STICKY FOCUSSING WHEEL AND ONLY £850 PLUS )....ERRRRR no thanks.

Leica bins are a shadow of what they once were and are now vastly overpriced.

As I stated in another thread.... I was thinking of purchasing a pair of Swaro's but I think I'll stick with my ancient Zeiss...the focussing wheel and optics are perfect.

[Bubbs]

The reasons for the "notchy" focus wheel as you put it are well documented. There IS a reason for it - you may not like it, understand it or need it.



Do tell, because I and many others have no idea why this fault is allowed through quality control. I also have a feeling that you too have absolutely no idea why this fault is a benefit to the user.

[Pileatus]

Do tell, because I and many others have no idea why this fault is allowed through quality control. I also have a feeling that you too have absolutely no idea why this fault is a benefit to the user.
My 7X42 Ultravid does not have a perfectly smooth focus. Guess what? It makes no difference at all in seeing what I want to see, when I want to see it. Since my eyes do not accommodate very quickly, I actually appreciate a slower focus.

In spite of all comments to the contrary, the Ultravid is a great glass.

John

[hinnark]

Do tell, because I and many others have no idea why this fault is allowed through quality control. I also have a feeling that you too have absolutely no idea why this fault is a benefit to the user.

Aprospos fault-finding: how many Leicas have you tried and which ones?

Steve

[postcardcv]

My 7X42 Ultravid does not have a perfectly smooth focus.

with the stunning DOF on the 7x42 I bet you hardly need to use the focus wheel!

[Pileatus]

with the stunning DOF on the 7x42 I bet you hardly need to use the focus wheel!
I use the focus wheel continuously. Age, eyeglasses, and diminishing eye accommodation make it necessary to fine-tune the image quite often.
John

[griffin]

Do tell, because I and many others have no idea why this fault is allowed through quality control. I also have a feeling that you too have absolutely no idea why this fault is a benefit to the user.

Since you have developed the power of reading ( but possibly not speech yet) I suggest you read the previous posts and those on the Leica Forum.

But just incase you can't read, or only read what you what ( as it seems) it is to provide consistent feel and performance within a large thermal range.

There, you know now.

And I have just broke the rule "never argue with a fool".

[griffin]

Do tell, because I and many others have no idea why this fault is allowed through quality control.


Yeah, that sums it up. "You" and "and many others" who presumably don't own Leica bins having pop at the products and the people who do own them.

This is what it boils down to - the focus knob and holes in the EL's apparently give bigger issues to those that don't own the products than those that do, and those that do on the whole are perfectly delighted with them. That is a fact so I don't know what it says about you as it has no relevance or significance to you ? Maybe you would like to share. Then again maybe not.

Linz

[Paul Godolphin]

HI AGAIN, FROM PAUL. (I STARTED THIS THREAD WITH MY DESCRIPTION OF THE FAULTS).
Just wanted to finally thank those of you who responded – some usefully with their own experiences, good and bad, and some with their preferences and ‘feelings’ about these products. Delighted to share knowledge with you all, wether we agree or not – thank you! It is to be regretted however, that this factual and pragmatic exchange of information has been diluted by quite so much (admittedly hilarious and enjoyable) humour, and some unfounded adverse personal remarks and name-calling from one prolific writer.. I hope that you can one day come to terms with the fact that other people may have different experiences than yourself Griffin, and won’t feel the need to attack, contradict or spam their otherwise good natured correspondence. I notice that you stood out by being the one who never did email me to receive the photos. You apparently preferred to continue insulting other writers who agreed with the findings.

In the end, the facts that we ALL agree upon, speak for themselves: 1). SOME LEICA BINOCULARS DEVELOP JUDDERY FOCUSSING SHORTLY AFTER PURCHASE, AND OTHERS DO NOT. 2). THIS HAS BEEN KNOWN FOR ALMOST FOUR YEARS, AND COMPLAINED ABOUT ON MANY FORUMS. 3). LEICA WILL FIX IT IF YOU RETURN THE BINOCULARS TO THEM. We all know these things. Our opinions vary, some (like me) feeling that this is a significant fault, and should have been rectified at source, not after the binoculars have been sold, and others who actually like their focus wheel jamming, and don’t want it changed. Until I came onto ‘Birdforum’ I had never met any of these people who actually LIKE the phenomenon. Everyone else I had encountered had been complaining bitterly. I think that this demonstrates what a useful medium the Forum offers us.

For myself, I hope that my humble acceptance of these conclusions will now conclude the discussion on LEICA. My nice new £1100 stuttering Ultravids will remain relegated to the cupboard. Clearly there’s plenty more to be said about Swarovski, but that will take place ONLY on the Swarovski page from this point onward. See ‘HOLE IN EL FOCUS BRIDGE’ thread. Thanks again Paul

[Bubbs]

Since you have developed the power of reading ( but possibly not speech yet) I suggest you read the previous posts and those on the Leica Forum.

And I have just broke the rule "never argue with a fool".

Brilliant 8-P

[postcardcv]

In the end, the facts that we ALL agree upon, speak for themselves: 1). SOME LEICA BINOCULARS DEVELOP JUDDERY FOCUSSING SHORTLY AFTER PURCHASE, AND OTHERS DO NOT. 2). THIS HAS BEEN KNOWN FOR ALMOST FOUR YEARS, AND COMPLAINED ABOUT ON MANY FORUMS. 3). LEICA WILL FIX IT IF YOU RETURN THE BINOCULARS TO THEM. We all know these things. Our opinions vary, some (like me) feeling that this is a significant fault, and should have been rectified at source, not after the binoculars have been sold, and others who actually like their focus wheel jamming, and don’t want it changed.

Indeed Leica are entirely open about the way they have designed the focusing system on the Ultravids, as has been stated here and on other threads the design is to allow the focus system to work at in wide range of temperatures. Some like it and some don't. Those who like it buy Leicas those who don't go for one of the other top end bins.

What I fail to understand is why you bought a pair of Ultravids if you are not happy with the focusing.

You seem determined to find fault with things. So far on BF you've told us that Leica Ultravids focusing is faulty (even though it's by design), that Swarovski EL have a hole so cannot be nitrogen purged and waterproof (I've seen ELs submurged, they really are waterproof). As for Zeiss FLs, apparently they have the "optics of vaseline tubes and the handling of a pineapple"...

I think most people who have used/tested high end bins will see your posts for what they are... I just hope no one takes your rants as facts without looking into it for themselves.

[Bubbs]

Indeed Leica are entirely open about the way they have designed the focusing system on the Ultravids, as has been stated here and on other threads the design is to allow the focus system to work at in wide range of temperatures. Some like it and some don't. Those who like it buy Leicas those who don't go for one of the other top end bins.


This is getting soooooo tedious.

If the 'sticky' or 'notchy' focussing (call it what you will ) wheel is a design positive why do they allow some Leicas to marketed with beautifully smooth focussing??

Instead of slating Paul, et al, perhaps someone can inform me as to why we have variants.

[postcardcv]

This is getting soooooo tedious.

If the 'sticky' or 'notchy' focussing (call it what you will ) wheel is a design positive why do they allow some Leicas to marketed with beautifully smooth focussing??

Instead of slating Paul, et al, perhaps someone can inform me as to why we have variants.


Indeed it is, but as the same thread was started in three place it's not surprising that there's been some repetition. I won't both replying to your Leica comments as it would clearly be re-treading ground already cover in this thread (and others on here).

I'm not sure that I was slating Paul, I'm just curious as to why someone would do so much research and testing of bins and still buy ones they're not happy with?

[hinnark]

This is getting soooooo tedious.

If the 'sticky' or 'notchy' focussing (call it what you will ) wheel is a design positive why do they allow some Leicas to marketed with beautifully smooth focussing??

Instead of slating Paul, et al, perhaps someone can inform me as to why we have variants.

Seems that some collaboration is going on here. Boy, I´ll tell you when you answer my question first (see above).

Steve

[Bubbs]

Seems that some collaboration is going on here. Boy, I´ll tell you when you answer my question first (see above).

Steve

The days when we addressed people by.. 'Boy' has long gone. I'd appreciate it if you called me Bubbs or John, please.

[elkcub]

At Paul Godolphin's request I've attached his two sets of Swaro pictures here. One shows the infamous "hole," and the other his sub-Chinese toy quality 10x25 SLCs.

The devil made me say it. :loveme:

[griffin]

The days when we addressed people by.. 'Boy' has long gone. I'd appreciate it if you called me Bubbs or John, please.

Since I have answered your question John I too would like the answer to mine : What is all this to you ? Do you have a pair of Ultravids that you are unhappy with ?

Or,did you want to buy them but just couldn't get your fingers round a stiff knob ? ( he, he :'D )

Linz

[griffin]

and some unfounded adverse personal remarks and name-calling from one prolific writer.. I hope that you can one day come to terms with the fact that other people may have different experiences than yourself Griffin, and won’t feel the need to attack, contradict or spam their otherwise good natured correspondence.


Another repeat posting, oh well.

Again Paul, please list where I have demonstrated "adverse personal remarks and name calling" before making such accusations against me. I have "sparred" a bit admitedly but I have tended to show some wit ( I hope) and have not called anyone a ****, c**t, mofo etc. If the level and content of response you have received to your initial post has surprised you or upset you then perhaps an open forum was not the best vehicle for expressing your rather one sided opinions and experience.

It is worth remembering that you instigated these threads and at one point were suggesting that Swaro and Leica owners were "sheep" just because they didn't conform to your beliefs, which you have since conceded are at one extreme !


Linz

[griffin]

I notice that you stood out by being the one who never did email me to receive the photos. You apparently preferred to continue insulting other writers who agreed with the findings.


Glad I was the only one ! Why should I have emailed you ? It is your perogative a thread starter to provide such 'evidence', not mine to get it from you. Remember I am the guy who is happy with his bins ! Can you also list who agreed with the findings for me ?

Again, what "other" writers who agreed with you have I insulted ? -If you are going to make such personal remarks and claims on a public forum you better be able to defend them.

Linz

[griffin]

Instead of slating Paul, et al, perhaps someone can inform me as to why we have variants.

The variation you describe is 'user orientated', basically the perception of the operator. My focus knob might feel stiff to you, but to me my knob works just fine. Same knob two different views or opinions = variation. I accept there will be some minor mechanical variation but using terms like "knobs jamming" (my old band ? ) doesn't help.

It's getting late isn't it ?........................

Linz

[Bubbs]

Again, what "other" writers who agreed with you have I insulted ? -If you are going to make such personal remarks and claims on a public forum you better be able to defend them.

Linz

Read post 37 .

[martin kitching]

I know a lot of birders with either Swaro or Leica bins and have never heard any of them complain about any problems with them. I would even go so far as to say that the design of my wife's Ultravids is better than my Zeiss 7x42 Dialyts.

This thread....and the other.....and the other.... Wouldn't it be better to go out birding rather than spending so much time finding faults with optical equipment that so few other birders believe are faults? It'll be much less stressful.

I find it rather amusing that, with no trace of irony, on NorthEastBirding, Paul complained bitterly;

But Swarovski..........Well, don't expect to get a sensible price back, even if they're still mint and in the box......trying to sell Swarovskis (EL,SLC and Compact models)PRIVATELY is a dead loss, and my last pair were unsold after two years of web, newspaper and birding press adverts.

Maybe there are people undermining their reputation? Just a thought.....

cheers
martin

[Tim Allwood]

I would even go so far as to say that the design of my wife's Ultravids is better than my Zeiss 7x42 Dialyts.

cheers
martin

and after all, the 7 x 42 dialyts are still the best bins in the world. Just get a pair (except you can't for love or money - they're that good).

I doubt any of you with these ropey Swaros and Leicas and FLs will be flogging them in the future for more than you paid for them nearly 20 years ago...

quality

Tim

[hinnark]

The images and the rumours prove nothing. I think this is simply a case of anti-advertisment or a kind of answer to the issues of sample variation that were discussed in Birdforum before. Quite professional made, though. Competition seems to get harder these days. Again: who benifts from Leica and Swaro bashing?

Steve

[griffin]

Read post 37 .

My question was actually directed at Paul who made the claim, however Bubbs if you took offence at that you did not understand the context :

"Never argue with a fool as that makes you a fool" or "only a fool argues with a fool". Therefore I was being self derisory.

However, if that is "abusive", "adverse name calling" and has deeply scarred you emotionally then I appologise unreservedly.


Linz

[griffin]

Again: who benifts from Leica and Swaro bashing?

Steve

Two people (at least) who were considering buying Swaro have now decided not to as a result of these threads, essentially on the basis that there is a slot in the focus knob that doesn't appear to leak water ( based on user testament).

The thread starter has initiated (yet) another thread on how to buy Swarovski bins stating they are the best bins on the market ( I pararphrase as I can't be bothered reading it again ).

The mind truly boggles.


Linz

[hinnark]

The thread starter has initiated (yet) another thread on how to buy Swarovski bins stating they are the best bins on the market ( I pararphrase as I can't be bothered reading it again ).

The mind truly boggles.
Linz

I would assess this as only a technique of pretended impartiality. It improves credibility and let propaganda be more successful.

Steve

[martin kitching]

If this doesn't make you smile, nothing will; posted in another thread exactly like the three on BF, but on a different forum (I've blanked out the name to protect the innocent);

On ******* last Autumn, ***** ********** the Warden asked for a go with my nice brand new Leica Ultravid 10x50's and asked if I had a
jerky action to my knob. He said his had gone stiff, and asked if he
could feel mine to see if it was the same.

ROFPMSL

cheers
martin

[hinnark]

Martin,

that was a good one. You´re right. There's an end of it!
: )

BTW which forum was that?

Steve

[Helenelizabeth2]

If this doesn't make you smile, nothing will; posted in another thread exactly like the three on BF, but on a different forum (I've blanked out the name to protect the innocent);

On ******* last Autumn, ***** ********** the Warden asked for a go with my nice brand new Leica Ultravid 10x50's and asked if I had a
jerky action to my knob. He said his had gone stiff, and asked if he
could feel mine to see if it was the same.

ROFPMSL

cheers
martin

Did the poster mention if he complied with the request? ;)

[martin kitching]

Martin,

that was a good one. You´re right. There's an end of it!
: )

BTW which forum was that?

Steve

NorthEastBirding, where Paul has recently provided his entertaining views on stiff knobs, the poor re-sale value of Swaro bins and the inadequacies of the modern birding scene. Whether you agree or disagree with his views they're worth reading.

cheers
martin

[martin kitching]

Did the poster mention if he complied with the request? ;)

Apparently he had a feel of the warden's and it had a jerky, stuttering feel to it :eek!:

This thread is certainly brightening up a dull, gloomy Friday. Stuck at home, feeling ill, but if I don't get off the computer and do the housework I'll be in danger of turning into an Allwood-esque............

[Helenelizabeth2]

Apparently he had a feel of the warden's and it had a jerky, stuttering feel to it :eek!:

This thread is certainly brightening up a dull, gloomy Friday. Stuck at home, feeling ill, but if I don't get off the computer and do the housework I'll be in danger of turning into an Allwood-esque............

LOL - love the pic - might have to create myself a version of that for my next avatar. ;)

[Bubbs]

My question was actually directed at Paul who made the claim, however Bubbs if you took offence at that you did not understand the context :

"Never argue with a fool as that makes you a fool" or "only a fool argues with a fool". Therefore I was being self derisory.

However, if that is "abusive", "adverse name calling" and has deeply scarred you emotionally then I appologise unreservedly.


Linz

Linz, No probs, it's a forum and half the fun is winding each other up. I think I'll get over it :hi:

My experience of Leica's probably involve many hundreds of pairs (if not thousands) I've looked through hundreds of birders bins along with visits to many, many, many, bird fairs and countless binocs shops. I simply could not trust a pair of Leica's not to develop the fault; some already have it new.

Saying all this my partner has a pair of Leica 8x32 BN's and they are stunning. They still have'nt really replaced the BN's with anything as good (Personal observation of course)

[Sancho]

Again: who benifts from Leica and Swaro bashing?

Steve

I have a theory, guys....perhaps all this was started by a mole from Leica and Swaro, a kind of Devil´s Advocate who´d bash both so that we would all spring to their defence? Lots of free advertising via testimonials by those of us who are perfectly happy with their bins....... Nice one, Messrs. Leica and Swaro! You nearly had us fooled there! See my peronal blog for ground-breaking theories.... Kennedy assassinated himself to cover up Marilyn´s affair with Elvis, who is now working for Cornell University in the swamps of Louisiana, and giving his peculiarly convincing rendition of an IBWO´s double-knocking and kenting calls.......

[Sancho]

I doubt any of you with these ropey Swaros and Leicas and FLs will be flogging them in the future for more than you paid for them nearly 20 years ago...
Tim

I dunno, Tim, I hope I´ll be just looking at birds through them...;)

[Craig H]

I .... Kennedy assassinated himself to cover up Marilyn´s affair with Elvis, who is now working for Cornell University in the swamps of Louisiana, and giving his peculiarly convincing rendition of an IBWO´s double-knocking and kenting calls.......

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Sancho]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

"Well since my baby left me, Knock-Knock, I found a new place to dwell, Knock-Knock...." (It´s even better with the music...)

Tell you what, though, there still seems to be discussion of these issues on three different threads, one called Jerky Focus wheels on Leica, one called Leica and Swarovski Inherent Faults, and another called Issues with Swarovski Products. Or something. Could they be combined, Moderators, so that we don´t have to thread-hop? (This is a very polite request, I´m sure you´re sick to death of these threads, and I´ve no idea how much hassle and extra work is involved combining threads....if it´s a drag, don´t bother, ´cos nothing earth-shattering is ever going to come out of all this anyway. Thanks in advance.)

[Sancho]

If this doesn't make you smile, nothing will; posted in another thread exactly like the three on BF, but on a different forum (I've blanked out the name to protect the innocent);

On ******* last Autumn, ***** ********** the Warden asked for a go with my nice brand new Leica Ultravid 10x50's and asked if I had a
jerky action to my knob. He said his had gone stiff, and asked if he
could feel mine to see if it was the same.

ROFPMSL

cheers
martin

3:-) 3:-) 3:-) I only just got that, nearly a day later! I must be getting old. Actually, re-reading it, it must have been written tongue-in-cheek (Oooh-er, Matron...), mustn´t it?.....I mean....Mustn´t it??

[Paul Godolphin]

I have a theory, guys....perhaps all this was started by a mole from Leica and Swaro, a kind of Devil´s Advocate who´d bash both so that we would all spring to their defence? Lots of free advertising via testimonials by those of us who are perfectly happy with their bins....... Nice one, Messrs. Leica and Swaro! You nearly had us fooled there! See my peronal blog for ground-breaking theories.... Kennedy assassinated himself to cover up Marilyn´s affair with Elvis, who is now working for Cornell University in the swamps of Louisiana, and giving his peculiarly convincing rendition of an IBWO´s double-knocking and kenting calls.......

Brilliant Sancho, thank heavens for the village idiot to lighten things up a little. But I see your promised reply from Swarovski hasn't appeared? If you get any sense there, you'll have succeeded where I failed in seven years of trying! In my naiveté I came to this forum to impart data on BINOCULARS and offer technical advice based on extensive personal experience. I have given blow-by-blow accounts, provided photographs and ‘named names’. I hold extensive files supporting each statement, and have provided further supporting material wherever requested. My original post about Leica was correctly posted on the Leica forum, and different Swarovski ones on the Swarovski page, with a general comparison on the binoculars section.
Not good enough it seems, for the habitual forum-dwellers who have levelled a deluge of personal attacks and slurs, choosing to sideline the subject matter under discussion with a smokescreen of ‘wind-up’ material, indignant contradiction and tactically repetitious questions. It is noteworthy that those who have voiced disgust at this behaviour and tried to re-focus attention to the matter in hand (ie. BINOCULARS) have, like myself, only a few posts to their name over several years. They only post when they have something constructive to offer. I share Edwin and Swissboy’s distaste for the spurious responses that we’ve all had to wade through in search of the genuine material here. It is also of interest that the persistent ‘spammers’ who have made such extreme efforts to stifle the facts on these threads each have several hundred, and in some cases thousands of postings to their names, and that their entries mar many other discussions on this site. More sinister however, is the fact that an anonymous ‘moderator’ of this forum has assisted the abusers, and ‘rounded-up’ every thread that I have ever written on various products, and dropped them all into huge made-up threads in a different order, where they no longer make sense to the reader, and change their meaning. The photographs have conveniently ‘disappeared’ from some of the locations, and at the same time this ‘moderator’ has dropped several threads by me about Swarovski products onto the Leica page, laying me open to further attacks for mis-posting. This has not been a great day for Freedom of Speech, has it? The facts about the binoculars however, remain as they were – despite clever concealment: 1). EL’s DO have a hole in them. 2). Some Ultravids DO develop jerky focussing shortly after purchase. 3). Swarovski DO confirm that they have no service or repair facilities whatsoever within the UK. No rant, no libel, just facts. Have a nice day.

[young ian]

[QUOTE=postcardcv;883860]Amazing set of threads, hard to believe in places...

The Leica focusing syetm is well know, yes it can be jerky on some bins, but it's by design, not a design fault. The 'hole' in the ELs clearly is by design too and not a fault... it obviously doesn't stop them being waterproof, as hundreds of satisfied customers can no doubt testify.



Goodmorning to everybody.

Focusing system designed to be 'Jerky' ??? Well I must say....no I can't.

Kindest regards,
young Ian.

[Sancho]

Brilliant Sancho, thank heavens for the village idiot to lighten things up a little. But I see your promised reply from Swarovski hasn't appeared? If you get any sense there, you'll have succeeded where I failed in seven years of trying! .

Hi Paul, funny you should mention it, but no, although I'd forgotten all about it, I haven't had a reply from Swarovski! Very odd........
But hey: When I got home from work today, I decided to test things. I took my beloved 10x42 EL´s (cautiously enough, ´cos they´re the ones I hardly use, generally I use the 8x32´s now). To prove that I am a Village Idiot Indeed Worthy of the Title (come on, at least it´s a Role in Life), I submerged them in a bucket of (cold) water. I noticed to my mild consternation that on immersion, lots of bubbles indeed came out of the focussing-bridge slit or hole. But I stood firm and left them (I mean, they only cost a month´s salary.....). After twenty minutes I took them out, and water dribbled out of said hole. So, unsurprisingly, the hole lets water in. "And now for the big test, Sancho", said I to myself. Wiped the lenses, took ´em outside, and guess what....they´re fine. And our local buzzards were up and about for the occasion. (I´m NOT trying to be facetious here, but I actually think the focussing was a bit smoother after immersion.....although this might be ´cos dust or something had gotten in, and is now washed out).
From my hands-on experiment, and recent experience, I can attest to the following:

1. The slit in the EL´s focussing bridge lets water in.
2. The water gets out again.
3. The bins must be internally sealed, ´cos no water got into the barrels.
4. You can leave them in a bucket of cold water for at least 20 minutes with no ill-effects. If you
want.
5. Curiously, Swarovski seem reluctant to tell us why there´s a slit there in any case.

Time to relax, EL owners. Tune in next week while I boil my head to see which pops first, eyeballs or ear-drums.

Sancho Flynn
Official Village Idiot to the BirdForum

[ceasar]

Hey Sancho!

LOL!

Bob

[WmCCO-5]

Sancho,

You are one brave dude!! I tried the same thing and my barrels filled with water! Just kidding, it didn't happen. Everybody relax, please!

Interestingly, I believe that you answered everyone's question. The slit is a sump drain for the entire bridge/hinge area(+). By extrapolation, it is also a cleaning port of sorts...say for a can of air to be used to rid dirt and other unwelcomed residents. If my guess is correct, then it is a great design.


Bill

[Sancho]

I tried the same thing and my barrels filled with water!

3:-) Excellent, Bill...Just for one awful moment....!

[medinabrit]

You are a very couragious man Sancho.[or very wealthy]
Brian.

[Sancho]

You are a very couragious man Sancho.[or very wealthy]
Brian.

Foolhardy might be the word, Brian. Mind you, I enjoyed the thrill of it in a perverse kind of way...

[Paul Godolphin]

You are a very couragious man Sancho.[or very wealthy] Brian.

Sancho, dude, you're a total hero!
Absolute respect, man. You've sorted the problem out
once and for all. Thanks a million.
Sorry to hear that the focussing mechanism filled up with
water, but happy for us all that it went no further.
The dealer and I didn't see any sealing down
those actuating mechanisms between the optical chambers
and the focus mechanism housing, but you've gone one
better and carried out a gutsy scientific experiment.

So they are definately not waterproof binoculars, but
it doesn't harm them. What a good outcome. I can
stop screaming about it now cos I've been proved right.
The owners can relax and breath a sigh of releif that the
hysterical Paul Godolphin is finally going to go away, and
Swarovski can simply change their adverts to say that
their products are "partly" waterproof so they don't get
taken to court, and we're all happy.
Way to go. I herby acknowledge that you have bigger
parts than B.A.Barachas. We all owe you a beer.
A gallon, in fact!
cheers
Paul

[Sancho]

In fairness to Paul, I didn´t take any offence at the "Village Idiot" thing, after all I chose the moniker "Sancho"....and I´d rather be a Village Idiot than his Delirious Master Tilting at Windmills (for seven years...). All part of the banter that these threads engendered, and I was largely responsible for taking the mickey quite a lot. No harm done, let´s all get back to birding, eh?;) Maybe it´s time to put these threads out of their misery.


BTW, Paul, who is B.A. Barachas?

Hey, this post is in response to one that has disappeared....making it seem like nonsense....where´s it gone?

[Paul Godolphin]

In fairness to Paul, I didn´t take any offence at the "Village Idiot" thing, after all I chose the moniker "Sancho"....and I´d rather be a Village Idiot than his Delirious Master Tilting at Windmills (for seven years...). All part of the banter that these threads engendered, and I was largely responsible for taking the mickey quite a lot. No harm done, let´s all get back to birding, eh?;) Maybe it´s time to put these threads out of their misery.


BTW, Paul, who is B.A. Barachas?

Sancho
Thanks again mate, I really enjoyed your participation in this. Great humour combined with a very balanced view of the matter, with a genuine desire to get an answer. Nobody can claim more commitment than your sheer guts in
soaking your own binoculars! I can't comment too much, as the moderators seem to be allowing the two guys who are 'having a go' to say what they like, but are deleting my replies when I actually prove what they're doing.
B.A.Barachas? He's the huge muscular black guy who plays 'Mister T' in Mission Impossible. Anyone more gutsy than him must be a helluva guy, ha harr! Good luck to you, sir! (and I agree about the threads - I've already asked the moderators to delete the lot. They declined, and sent me an anonymous unpleasant email instead). I don't think I can get a fair hearing here, can I? You try asking them.
All the best Paul (leaving for the Pacific in a couple of days)

[Leif]

I can't comment too much, as the moderators seem to be allowing the two guys who are 'having a go' to say what they like, but are deleting my replies when I actually prove what they're doing.
B.A.Barachas?

Paul: Bird Forum allows open discussion, and disagreement on issues is not uncommon. I have never had a go at you. But I have stated that I disagree with you. Such disagreement is commonplace here. Especially when discussing the colour of navel fluff. Anyway, most of my postings are tongue in cheek as I do find some of these threads amusing.

I saw one of your deleted posts, and I was not offended by it. Sancho's posts are funnier.

[Sancho]

Sancho
Thanks again mate, I really enjoyed your participation in this. Great humour combined with a very balanced view of the matter, with a genuine desire to get an answer. Nobody can claim more commitment than your sheer guts in
soaking your own binoculars! I can't comment too much, as the moderators seem to be allowing the two guys who are 'having a go' to say what they like, but are deleting my replies when I actually prove what they're doing.
B.A.Barachas? He's the huge muscular black guy who plays 'Mister T' in Mission Impossible. Anyone more gutsy than him must be a helluva guy, ha harr! Good luck to you, sir! (and I agree about the threads - I've already asked the moderators to delete the lot. They declined, and sent me an anonymous unpleasant email instead). I don't think I can get a fair hearing here, can I? You try asking them.
All the best Paul (leaving for the Pacific in a couple of days)

Thanks Paul, I appreciate that. I reckon dunking my own bins really was verging on idiocy - I don´t think Kimmo has anything to fear from Dr. Sancho´s Institute for Advanced Gonzo Bino Research. I´m still at a loss as to why Swaro don´t simply tell us what the bleedin´slit is really for! I hope you have a great trip in the Pacific, and get great use out of your Zeiss Conquests....how are they? I´ve never seen a pair (the two Bino retailers in Dublin are not exactly overstocked, although they are overpriced....) And hey, I really like the "Village Idiot" thing, I think I might start using it as an avatar (or whatever that thing is called where your name appears...I´m also a Lumbering Neanderthal in cyberspace....) In any case, no offence was ever intended with the puerile humour stuff...it comes of working with teenagers all day. Best Wishes!

[griffin]

The owners can relax and breath a sigh of releif that the hysterical Paul Godolphin is finally going to go away, and
Swarovski can simply change their adverts to say that
their products are "partly" waterproof so they don't get
taken to court, and we're all happy.



Why are they not waterproof ? The elements don't fog and water does not penetrate the internal workings. These sort of comments are just not true or helpful to anyone researching buying a new pair of bins.

You should have done this test in the first place to prove YOUR theory. It would have saved much nonsense.

Maybe get your "facts" right in future Paul rather than 'going off on one'.

[Paul Godolphin]

Paul: Bird Forum allows open discussion, and disagreement on issues is not uncommon. I have never had a go at you. But I have stated that I disagree with you. Such disagreement is commonplace here. Especially when discussing the colour of navel fluff. Anyway, most of my postings are tongue in cheek as I do find some of these threads amusing.

I saw one of your deleted posts, and I was not offended by it. Sancho's posts are funnier.

Leif, Thola, Sancho. Thanks for some great entertainment. Got to say that it really has developed into a quite friendly affair. Really appreciated your company. Also glad that you've noticed how my posts keep being altered and removed. At least it confirms that I wasn't imagining things. I'm now having to do full print-offs of the threads every time I disconnect, so that I can keep up to date with the items that have been saboutaged by this anonymous 'moderator' before I return next time. Wierd situation, when the persons appointed to regulate behaviour on the forums are actually practicing gross misconduct themselves. Anyhow, thanks you guys for being understanding, and for some excellent banter. Lief, you even took my 'full broadside' on the chin and remain civil. You are gentleman, and have proved it. Thank you all. I'm leaving shortly for a trip that will (hopefully) last over a year. Eat your hearts out suckers! ha har... If I'm in an internet cafe in Samoa or Vanuatu at any time, I'll drop by to see what you nuts are up to next. Hope you can keep Griffin supplied with something else to contradict.
All the best, and thanks again for spending some time here. It's been my pleasure.
cheers Paul

[Paul Godolphin]

PS. Sancho - sorry I forgot to mention the Conquests. Odd but enjoyable items. I'll rattle-off a quick product review on the Zeiss page in a minute.

[Bubbs]

Well, Paul, I for one thank you for all your efforts. Well done.

Have a good one.

John.

[Leif]

Wierd situation, when the persons appointed to regulate behaviour on the forums are actually practicing gross misconduct themselves.

Paul: As far as I know the mods are unpaid, and put in a lot of time and effort to ensure that this place remains up and running, and that we can use it for free. So they do serve a purpose .... |=)|

Anyway I would just like to take this opportunity to say what an excellent job the mods are doing in keeping BF running. (Psst: This is how to prevent your posts being removed. Works for me ... )

[Paul Godolphin]

Well, Paul, I for one thank you for all your efforts. Well done.

Have a good one.

John.

John, thanks a million for the support too. You blokes that stuck in here for fair play are the best. I'd have been seriously stuffed by the bad guys without your balancing input. I reckon I learned a lot in a short time.
Great to hear from you mate.

[griffin]

Hope you can keep Griffin supplied with something else to contradict.
Paul


That's right Paul keep singling me out as "the bad guy". I would like to know what I have contradicted, but then you have never let me know the alledged personal comments I am supposed to have made previously so I won't hold my breath.

Also my name is Lindsay not Griffin - I have used it often enough yet you still feel that it is too 'personal' to use.

Please keep taking the tablets (or get some fast). Yep that is personal but then I am sick of constantly being made the fall guy after all the positive comments I made at the start of this thread. That is personal too and has become evident to others.

Lindsay

[griffin]

I'll rattle-off a quick product review on the Zeiss page in a minute.

No please don't................

too late, he has ! Zeiss users beware

[martin kitching]

How can we take this all seriously??? B.A.Baracus was in 'The A Team', not Mission Impossible ;)

cheers
martin

[Alexis Powell]

How can we take this all seriously??? B.A.Baracus was in 'The A Team', not Mission Impossible ;)
cheers
martin

Yes, and B.A. Baracus was the character's name in The A Team while Mr. T is the actor's trade name (given name Laurence Tureaud), not the other way around. Details, details....
--AP

[Leif]

I seem to have wandered into a game of Trivial Pursuit. Time to exit stage left.

[ThoLa]

Yes, and B.A. Baracus was the character's name in The A Team while Mr. T is the actor's trade name (given name Laurence Tureaud), not the other way around. Details, details....
--AP


I am confused now.
Does this mean that the old Leica BAs had a Mr. T* coating that was invented by the A-Engineering team? Dan S. would turn in his grave if he knew about all this.

[Sancho]

I am confused now.
Does this mean that the old Leica BAs had a Mr. T* coating that was invented by the A-Engineering team? Dan S. would turn in his grave if he knew about all this.

Who´s Dan S.? I Pity the Fool......

[ThoLa]

Who´s Dan S.? I Pity the Fool......

Daniel Swarovski, the old crystal grinder. 8-P
I had hoped someone would ask!

Sorry it was you,
Alonzo Quijano

[Sancho]

Alonzo Quijano

:clap: :clap: :clap: ¡Genio!

[ThoLa]

:clap: :clap: :clap: ¡Genio!

Thank you, my faithful companion of the road, thank you.
I knew ....

Don Q., Esq.

[iporali]

Dan S. would turn in his grave if he knew about all this.

I agree... if Dan S. lived, he probably would turn in his grave.

Ilkka

[ThoLa]

I agree... if Dan S. lived, he probably would turn in his grave.

Ilkka


Or maybe just rattle his bones with laughter, and demand a USB wire to be connected with his coffin so he could participate.

He's probably grinding his teeth he can't.

[Sancho]

I agree... if Dan S. lived, he probably would turn in his grave.

Ilkka
3:-) If he had enough room to turn, that is. And for ventilation, the coffin would have to have hol..... (no, let's not start that again...)

[ThoLa]

3:-) And for ventilation, the coffin would have to have hol..... (no, let's not start that again...)

Oh Danny Boy!
I hope you'll have a cordless drill .........