Black Brant (and others).

[Andrew]

Hello all,

Recently a friend and I managed to see a Black Brant at Ferrybridge. We only relaised what it was after it was put out on Birdguides. We have a bit of a debate as whether to include it in our lists. I am all for putting in my list in italics and then reverting it to a full species tick when there is a split if any does occur. My colleague, after discussing it with a birder, argues that all three branta berniclas are simply Brent Geese. I think the same could be said for all Grey Geese if that is the thinking.

With so many potential splits looming in the world of Geese can anyone shed some light on which are likely become full species and count as valid ticks? I understand some are already claiming splits in some geese but not yet the BOU.

Where can an online official list of british species and subspecies be seen? My Google searches' best results are an inaccessible thread on Bird Forum.

Andrew.

[robinm]

I would regard Black Brant as a subspecies of Brent Goose - Branta bernicla. In fact the three subspecies of Brent goose are:

Pale-bellied Brent Goose Branta bernicla hrota
Dark-bellied Brent Goose Branta bernicla bernicla
Black Brant Branta bernicla nigricans


They may become separate species in the future, but I wouldn't count on it. I certainly record the fact of which race I see although I only count 1 species.

Alternatively you could move to the Netherlands and then you can count what you like. :t:

[Michael Frankis]

The other thing to remember . .
Black Brant (US) = Black Brent Goose (UK)
Pale-bellied Brant (US) = Pale-bellied Brent Goose (UK)
Dark-bellied Brant (US) = Dark-bellied Brent Goose (UK)

Why there's this fetish among some UK birders for using the American spelling for one race, but not the others, is peculiar. A lot of the Pale-bellied Brants that winter in Britain come from America, while most or all of the Black Brent Geese in Britain are from Siberia.

I'd rate the likelihood of them being split by the BOURC as very low; there's a fair deal of published info which indicates that they don't behave as distinct species. Much better bets for European / Greenland Whitefronts, and Taiga / Tundra Bean Geese.

Michael

[Jasonbirder]

Robinm summarises it exactly:- Though i`m not sure what the future likelihood of a split is?
If Green-winged Teal is a valid species then whats the difference for Black Brant & Pale-bellied Brent goose?
With regards to the Grey Geese
the recognisable sub-species (and potential future splits are:-

Tundra Bean Goose from Taiga Bean Goose
(Taiga is the common wintering race occuring on Tayside and in East Anglia, Tundra is more of a rare immigrant in cold weather)

&

European White-fronted Goose from Greenland White-fronted Goose
European being the more familiar in East Anglia & Slimbridge - for you Andrew! Greenland`s wintering range being restricted to Islay & West Scotland)

Don`t think anyone has mooted possible splits for Pink-feet & Greylags yet!!

[Stephen Dunstan]

Why wouldn't a split of Greylag be mooted - it has more than one race and as such is no different to the cases discussed.

Some might argue that Pinkfoot is a split, as it is sometimes regarded as conspecific (is that the right word?) with the Bean Geese.

Stephen.

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Jason,

European White-fronted Goose from Greenland White-fronted Goose
Greenland`s wintering range being restricted to Islay & West Scotland)
Not quite that restricted - there's also Greenlanders wintering on the Dyfi Estuary (Wales) and at Grindon Lough (Northumbs). And lots in Ireland of course, including the largest flock of them all, at the Wexford Slobs

Other geese, the other likely forthcoming split is between 'large' and 'small' Canada Geese (the 'small' Canadas are genetically more closely related to Barnacle Geese, than they are to 'large' Canadas!)

Michael

[ColinD]

The other thing to remember . .
Black Brant (US) = Black Brent Goose (UK)


Can't say I've ever heard the name Black Brent Goose before. Though I would generally agree with you about the use of American names, in this case Black Brant sounds much better in my opinion and is the name I would always use.

The only one I have seen was at Pilling in Lancashire a few years back, when it was with about 6 other Brents, including both Pale and Dark bellied. Seven birds, three races, quite amazing really,especially if they do get split, and doubly so since brents of any race are scarce visitors to North West England.

Black Brant is on my list, even though I know it's a race, and I don't count the other two as seperate. It's just one of the many inconsistancys when you are a birder with no prinicples!

Colin

[Charlie M]

Eastern "races" of Tundra Beans and Taiga Beans definitely deserve to be split - they are morphologically quite distinct and utilise different habitats: tundras are thickset, short-necked birds that graze on dryish land, whilst Taigas are more swan-like and are usually found digging up tubers and roots in wet areas.
As for the Brent/Brants - as the ranges contract then expand again, who knows what they'll evolve into over the course of the next few thousand years...assuming we humans give them the time and space to, that is...

[Andrew]

Certainly a very complex issue and one I will be glad to see resolved in years to come and be published in a reprint of the Collins or something like that.

I was reading a previous Black Brant hybridisation article in Birdwatch and it seems there are not very many Black Brant Geese occurring in Britain, is this the case?

[Jasonbirder]

Black Brant is a rare vagrant, but regular returning birds do occur each year.
Records are currently running at about 12-15 birds per year (not counting Ireland - they probably get a few too!)

[Tim Allwood]

don't forget there are Grey-bellied Brants (orientalis)too somewhere in between (breed in eastern Siberia) The status of these 'forms' is somewhat contentious.........

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Jason,
We do indeed get a few Black Brants here every winter,and I'd guess that most of ours are from North America(they tend to arrive with the usual Pale-bellied Brent).Have seen two,but not in the slightest bit tempted to tick them!
Greenland and Russian White-fronts,on the other hand,are really quite distinct,and I would certainly put money on a split!The latter is rare here,but annual(have seen a few myself).
Have "only" seen Taiga Bean Goose(not bad,considering the rarity of both taxa of Bean Goose in Ireland).
Harry H

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Harry,

Agreed on the potentials for splits - when they winter in the same area, the three Brant races mix freely with each other in winter, whereas Greenland & Russian (Eurasian) Whitefronts ignore each other completely even when they're feeding in the same field.

Since young geese pair up on the wintering grounds, it means there's a high chance of different Brant races pairing up and producing mixed young (this is happening quite a lot on Lindisfarne recently, where there's around 2,000 pale-bellied and 200 dark bellied wintering), but very little chance of the two Whitefronts pairing.

Michael

[Andrew]

My conclusion is not to tick them as separate species but I still value having seen the Black Brant considering it does not occur in high numbers in this country.

[Jane Turner]

Oh dear, I can remember when Pink-foot was split from Bean!

I'm really not sure there is any great point splitting Brents/Brants. Surely its good enough when you see a classic individual of one race of the other to know that you have seen it and where it is most likely from. There seems to be far to much overlap for me. I had a couple of Brents a year or so ago that got me really excited. Between them they made up a nigricans but individually they were both missing something. My best guess in the end was intergrades, though I did consider orientalis.

They were on the beach on front of the house, but my camera was out of action. I drew them instead,.... footless since I can't draw feet!

[Andrew]

Superb drawings!!! All my birds look pretty much the same!

[Tim Allwood]

Hi Jane

No-one can draw birds' feet - you're in good company here ;)

[Steve Lister]

don't forget there are Grey-bellied Brants (orientalis)too somewhere in between (breed in eastern Siberia) The status of these 'forms' is somewhat contentious.........

I thought 'Grey-bellied Brents' were supposed to be from a part of arctic Canada.
Is 'orientalis' something different Tim ??

Steve

[Dave B Smith]

Andrew,

Your question on which subspecies in the UK might be split out is a common question. I found a good resource on line that has the Sibley-Monroe world list as well as updates to it and additionally what you would be interested in is the companion file called "incipient species". This is a list of all "probable" near future splits (OK, sure it's one person's opinion). It is however global. You could compare it against the list of British Birds though and thus pick out just the ones you're interested in. Attached is the link to Ornitaxa web site:
Incipient species (http://www.ornitaxa.com/SM/SMOrg/sibley4.html)

[Tim Allwood]

Hiya Steve

Seems I work better with binomials Steve :h?: – sorry!. I meant Branta bernicla orientalis, referred to ‘commonly’ as Siberian Black Brant.

Nigricans and bernicla have been reported to interbreed too in one of their contact zones (northwest Yakutia) – these are the contentious birds I was referring to as their id is not accepted by all. See BB 93 page 94 onward.

Hope this is a bit clearer....... ;)

[Andrew]

A useful resource Dave. I noticed some names are different to British names but that happens when you go global.

[Tim Allwood]

And just to muddy the waters even further......
A quick trawl of google found Grey-bellied Brants descibed as B.b.orientalis! on the Birdsirelend website http://www.birdsireland.com/pages/irish_list/appendices.html This was the second site I checked. I knew I’d heard orientalis referred to as Grey-bellied before from somewhere......

And an email from Richard Millington and Martin Garner on http://www.virtualbirder.com/bmail/idfrontiers/200105/w4/#6 quotes ‘Nearly all the scientific literature avoids giving a Latin binomial or trinomial when referring to Grey-bellied Brant.’

:brains: It’s all very well splitting right, left and centre but when we don’t use standardised English names it becomes a minefield. Perhaps birders should move towards using the bi and trinomials....... ;)

[cjay]

most are, I expect armchair ticks. I just tick the nominate race & ignore all the others.
CJ

[Michael Frankis]

Grey-bellied Brants
Is that Grey-bellied Brant or Gray-bellied Brent? ;)

Checked up on the Brant / Brent question - this one, America has it right, Brant is the original correct spelling. 'Brent' is a later error introduced by Pennant in 1768 (he was under the false impression that the name was derived from Greek brenthos, which it isn't - the name is onomatopoeic, from its call). So the BOU really ought to change it back to Brant in Britain as well

descibed as B. b. orientalis on the Birdsirelend ......
‘Nearly all the scientific literature avoids giving a Latin binomial or trinomial when referring to Grey-bellied Brant.’
I wonder if perhaps the subspecific name orientalis is not validly published under the ICZN rules? - If so, they are right to avoid using it.

Michael

[Charlie M]

My understanding is that "orientalis" is a disputed/debatable form of Black Brant, breeding in the extreme west of the Black Brant's range with small numbers wintering in South Korea. Very little is known about migration routes etc. The birds that are called "orientalis" are (again apparently) decreasing as wetlands are reclaimed, and as both nominate BBs expand westwards and Dark-bellied Brents expand eastwards into the breeding areas.

[Tim Allwood]

Hi charlie/michael
That was my initial understanding of the taxa orientalis (apologies for the wrong English name). So I take it that Grey-bellied is the Canadian ‘form’ that doesn’t even have a trinomial? The refs to orientalis as Grey-bellied on websites are therefore in error...?

[Steve Lister]

Hi charlie/michael
That was my initial understanding of the taxa orientalis (apologies for the wrong English name). So I take it that Grey-bellied is the Canadian ‘form’ that doesn’t even have a trinomial? The refs to orientalis as Grey-bellied on websites are therefore in error...?

Hi Tim
Yes, which is what I said a few messages back. 'Grey-bellied Brents' are the things that have been turning up in Ireland in small numbers; they breed in the Canadian Arctic and have a normal wintering range somewhere on the Pacific coast of North America, I forget where but Richard Millington has been and photographed them. 'Orientalis' is something else again.

Steve

[Tim Allwood]

Hi Steve

thanx for that
appears that calling Grey-bellied 'orientalis' in error is not unusual. Writing about forms or even incipient 'species' before they have a trinomial seems to be a recipe for confusion. guess things will only get worse.....