A good camera for a beginner?

[PenSketcher]

I'm interested in buying a camera, but I'm not entirely sure which to buy.
At the moment I'm leaning towards a Fuji Finepix S9600, but I'm not sure whether it meets a birder's standard? I have a few questions to help me know what I want:

I want to use it to take pictures of birds, right, so what will it need? Image stabilization? Point and shoot? etc.

Also what is more important; optical zoom or mega pixels?

What is the best brand for birding?

Or quite simply what is the best camera for birding?

As you can probably see, I have no clue about cameras. I'm not concerned how hard one is to use, as I pick up buttons and switches in a flash. I don't want to have to buy lenses for it, so I would like one with fair zooming power.
Also I'd love it if it were below 1000 aussie dollars.

I would still like a camera that lenses can be attached to, but I want one thats independent and usable without one.

I hope I'm making sense... |:S|

Thanks in advance,

[Claymore]

Check out the Olympus SP-550UZ range of 28-505mm and you can fit a TCON17 to it for even more! also it has image stabilising and super macro down to 1cm. all for around £369.00 i have heard great reviews of them. Its classed as a Bridge camera (halway between a compact and a full size SLR)
Cheers
Brian

[PenSketcher]

Thankyou Brian I'll have a look at it. :)

[TBMike]

Look at Canon S5 IS as good all round bird camera.

[PenSketcher]

Got it, thanks Mike.
I'll have a look after I get these paper rounds done...

[AC/DC]

Hi,

Just so you know what to look out for:

More megapixels isn't neccesarily better. 6 is ample, and 10 on a compact camera can be two many - putting a arger amount of pixels on a small sensor means that a lot of heat is generated, and each pixel sees less light, which means more digital noise ( a bit like grain ) and artificial artifacts ( i.e random colours)

More optical zoom is great, but remember focal lengths. Most cameras state the optical zoom as the zoom range of the focal length - which is written in mm, e.g 35mm - 350mm would be 10X, however this is not the same as 10X binoculars. 50mm is regarded as roughly the same length as a humnas eye, so 500mm would be nearer 10X.

Good ISO performance is very handy, as this judges te sensitivity of the sensor. The more ISO speed, the faster the shutter speeds will be, but the more noise will be generated. You need high shutter speeds to eliminate hand shake and freeze a bird in action. On a sunny day this isnt a problem, but if the light is failing or it is cloudy, it could be. If the camera can be used at higher ISO's i.e 800, it is regarded as having a good ISO performance.

The Olympus and canon camera's mentioned are good options, remember that the olympus is only really the equivalent of 10X, but it does have a very wide angled short end. The canon is around 8X ( 432mm equivalent.) Others to consider are the Panasonic range.

Just to confuse matters more, you may have seen ( in 35mm terms) or (equivalent) mentioned. This is due to the smaller sensors of digital cameras causing a 'crop factor' which reduces the field of view, and can result in a closer image. http://www.millhouse.nl/digitalcropfactorframe explains it well. It would therefore take a larger lens to get the equivalent focal lenght on a 35mm camera, so is written: in 35mm terms. A 400mm lens on a digital would need to be larger on a 35mm to get the same reach. ( crop factor varies between camera's. In some, it can be very large. )
Hope that helps!

[PenSketcher]

Thanks a lot AC/DC!
I'll have to go over it a couple of times to understand but I can tell it's gonna be helpful!

Really, this helps a lot.

[AC/DC]

Thats alright.

When I first wanted a camera, it took me a while to understand all the jargon, and its hard to seperate the useful info from the not-so.

[kittykat23uk]

Do a search, take a look a the "18X superzoom" thread and the Panasonic, olympus and canon subforums. There is lots of info on the options. In the end I went for the Panasonic FZ18 and I posted a few shots on the aforementioned threads so take a look at the results if you are interested. For info, and I only found this out after I bought it, if you want to add a teleconverter to the FZ18 you need to get a lens adapter tube part no DMW-LA3 which has not yet been released (I think its due to be released in November). The Olympus teleconverter lens TCON 17 seems to be well recommended for the panasonics.

[PenSketcher]

Thanks kittykat.

At the moment I think I'm leaning towards these three:
Fuji Finepix S9600
Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ18K
Fuji FinePix S8000fd
If anyone owns one of the above please post a review. I've read other reviews but I haven't found any from birders.
All these cameras look good to my uneducated eye, but perhaps they just weren't made for photographing birds? If so you need to tell me so! And perhaps even point out one - ultimate - birding camera. (If one exists that would be great lol)

Thanks,

[AC/DC]

Unfortunately, there is no one best camera. You have to make the best compromise for yourself. Most of the superzooms were made as a versatile camera, that can be used for multiple purposes, so no, they arent made just for bird photography. But you've got to remmeber that the DSLR's that have lenses made for wildlife photography are heavier and more expensive, so there is always going to be a compromise. I tried digiscoping, considered a superzoom, but decided i might as well go for the 'proper' camera. And, needless to say, I am very happy with the results i get from my DSLR setup (about £600).

The superzooms also double up as a great macro and portait camera. They are very light and small compared with a dslr setup, so they can be carried around easily. Of course, this means that there will be a loss in performance - both of the camera and lens.
So in answer to your question, no there is no best birding camera - otherwise everyone would have one! You have to way up the pros and cons for your purposes. What you may find helps is writing out what features each camera has that is better than the others, which, although it sounds really stupid, actually helps.

[PenSketcher]

I see, I see
Why does life always force you to think?? >_<

So you say DSLR's have nice results? I was just reading about the Fuji Finepix S9600, apparently it's very similar to a DSLR but lighter of course. I don't really see how that works but I'll find the link and get back to you.

[PenSketcher]

Ah-ha! I found it:

Photographyblog.com said:
"The new S9600 is still being heavily promoted as a better alternative to a digital SLR camera by Fujifilm, and it's not hard to see why by looking at the headline specifications. A 9 megapixel sensor, 28-300mm lens, RAW mode and full manual control are features in common with entry-level DSLRs that cost a lot more than the Fujifilm S9600. The Fujifilm Finepix S9600 also has a lot of other DSLR-like features - completely manual zoom control and focusing ring on the lens, flash hotshoe, viewfinder and an ISO range of 80-1600. Fujifilm have really pulled out all the stops to make the S9600 as similar to a digital SLR as possible. But they haven't stopped there - this camera also offers features that are unique to compact digital cameras..."

Also have a look at it's ISO:
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews_fujifilm_finepix_s9600_2.php

Not exactly grainy eh? Or at least much better than others like it.

[AC/DC]

Not to bad at all. The fact that it has been marketed to compete with a dslr is the same as the other superzooms - they are meant to be an in between option. They aren't however, as this article tries to lead you, better than a DSLR, especially for bird photography. Also, you may find that 300mm is too short for bird photgraphy - and i expect thats in 35mm terms. Indeed i find my 400mm lens to be too short sometimes.

[AC/DC]

Also, remember the whole megapixel issue. Fujifilm do make very good sensors if i remember rightly, which is probably why the ISO performance is good.
More megapixels isnt neccessarily better - putting more pixels on a sensor will reduce the light each pixel sees and increase heat - making more noise.

Heres a good link - http://6mpixel.org/en/

[kittykat23uk]

Okay if it helps, here is what I have got and my reasonings for going with what I bought.

I wanted a lightweight telescope for travelling so bought myself a Kowa TS-614 and I wanted a camera to use with the scope so went for a Fuji F31 FD after reading a lot of good reviews on here about its high ISO performance and really good sensor. Now I can still get closer to the birds with this set up and get better results in lower light levels that I would be able to achieve with my Panasonic FZ18. However, the downside is it takes a while to set up and is a lot more fiddly. So its really only useful if you have time to set up a shot. For example, if you are in a hide and are shooting waders, wildfowl etc.

The Panasonic I bought for when using a scope and the fuji is not practical. For example, when shooting from a vehicle on safari, or for small birds at reasonably close range in bushes, where you need something that is more responsive. I also wanted something relatively cheap, lightweight and compact, again for when I am travelling. But you do sacrifice the range of a digiscoping set up and the ISO performance of a DSLR or digicam with an excellent sensor like the fuji.

I didn't want the expense, hassle or weight of a DSLR at this stage.

[PenSketcher]

It's been awhile but I've done some research. Which is better for birding?

Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ8 | 12x Optical Zoom, 7.2 Megapixels
Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ18 | 18x Optical Zoom, 8 Megapixels
Fujifilm Finepix S8000 | 18x Optical Zoom, 8 Megapixels

I've heard about Panasonic's noise issues in low light, will this be a problem for birding? I don't want a bulky DSLR so does it get any better? Also, how low is low light? Nighttime? Overcast days? What defines low light..? Apparently it's a bi better in the FZ18 but I'm concerned 8mp is too much. Kittykat told me about the Fuji sensor, so I've added the Fuji I think best to the list.

Also I just read the Fuji is good for taking sport action-shots, surely birding is quite similar?

Gah, it all still confuzzles me,

[kittykat23uk]

Lots of info on these cameras over on Dpreview.com.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=25411863
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=25391292
http://www.dcviews.com/reviews/Panasonic-FZ18/Panasonic-FZ18-review.htm
http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Fujifilm_FinePix_S8000fd/

The fuji camera I referred to is the F31FD which I use with my telescope to get the reach I need. It can't really be compared to a superzoom. It is not the S8000 which is Fuji's attempt at a superzoom.

So, of the three, in short, the FZ18 will give you more reach at the long end and I have heard that the image quality improves on the FZ8. Both can take an additional teleconverter (Olympus TCON-17 for instance) which will give you more reach, but I understand that the lens adapter for the FZ-18 hasn't been released yet - it is due out next month). Looking at the reviews, it seems the FZ18 has had better reviews than the Fuji S8000.

[PenSketcher]

Hmm, thats what the guy at the camera store said; but I guess that was only because it costs twice as much.

The only concern I have is that the FZ18 doesn't support AA Batteries. But I suppose 400 shots should see me through hikes and such, right?

[PenSketcher]

By the way I meant to ask whether 'point and shoot' is a bad thing?

[kittykat23uk]

well you can always buy a spare battery. ;)

[PenSketcher]

Thats why I'm leaning towards the Fuji, the Panasonic doesn't use batteries, you have to charge it |:(|

[kittykat23uk]

Yeah but even if you got one that took AAs you'd probably still want rechargeable ones so whats the difference?

[iowa_hawk1]

Thats why I'm leaning towards the Fuji, the Panasonic doesn't use batteries, you have to charge it |:(|

The Panasonic FZ18 does indeed use battery. It is a recharagble battery and you can buy spares so that when the first battery expires, you pop in a freshly charged one. For cameras that use AA batteries you should invest in Rechargable NiMH batteries and have at least two sets for the same reason, when you exhaust one set you pop in the fresh set.

Personally, for any important trip where I absoulutely need to get the photo, I carry two spare sets and have a fresh set in the camera when I start.

[Cristian Mihai]

I would also say that your options are:
1. Canon PowerShot S5 IS (plus a Canon 1.5X teleconverter or a Raynox (1.54X or 2.2X) teleconverter, because a 12x optical zoom it isn't enough for birding).
2. Olympus SP 560UZ - 18X optical zoom (You can also use a teleconverter with this one: a TCON-17 or a Raynox).
3. Panasonic F18 - 18X optical zoom (but I also don't like that it don't works with AA batteries - works with Raynox teleconverters and with TCON-17)
4. Fuji S8000 or S8100 (18x optical zoom)...

About resolution: all these cameras have 8 Megapixels or more (S8100 have 10) which is good.

By the way, I have a Canon PowerShot S3 and a Olympus SP 560UZ.

P.S. There is now available a new OLympus camera: Olympus SP 570UZ (20X!!! optical zoom)...I saw it on amazon at 500$...

[ghostrider]

A word of warning when it comes to the size of optical zoom. Manufacturers like a big number, it sells. When Panasonic brought the FZ18 out, which has 18x zoom, they reduced the size of the lens to 28mm. This gives a range of 28-504mm.
The FZ8 is only 12x zoom but has a 36mm lens giving a range of 36-432mm.
The 18x gives you only an extra 72mm of zoom, not an extra 50% as implied by the numbers.
Remember the 18x 12x 20x numbers are a multiple of the lens size so check and don't be fooled by big numbers.

[nick the grief]

I've got a Fuji S9600 and it's a superb camera but doesn't quite have the reach for Birds - I use mine for taking foto's of my cacti when they are in flower. You can buy a teleconvertor to screw onto the front of the lens but I think if I were you I'd sooner go for the S8000 and that's an 18x so has a bit more reach anyway.

Hope that helps

ps the Fuji forum is a good place to learn how to use it as well;)

[chewie]

My setup is a Canon 400D with an EF70-300mm f4.5/5.6 70-300mm IS USM.

its ideal for anything bigger than a Blackbird, but for full frame of something the size of a Robin for example, you will need to get within 2m...

i kinda wish i used the money to get myself a 2nd hand 400mm L series lens tho...

[666taz]

Just to add always look for optical zoom not digital as optical is in the lens all digital zoom is,is software making the pixels bigger to make it look closer not using the lens optics which is best so the better the optical zoom the better some of the newer cameras that do 18x have not altered their lenses to get this but made thier sensor smaller to get these types of magnefication so could be noisier than lower mag versions more megapixels smaller sensor means more noise hope this is not too complex hope it helps