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Mystery Pipit again (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jane Turner
- Start date
Brian Stone
A Stone chatting
Where did it move from?
White outer tail = not Mipit
Pale legs = not Rock
Therefore Water?
White outer tail = not Mipit
Pale legs = not Rock
Therefore Water?
Jane Turner
Well-known member
It moved as I took the pic
Brian Stone
A Stone chatting
Sorry the white outer tail is indicative of Water or Mipit. Mantle streaking don't look like Mipit though
Jasonbirder
Jason-occasional-twitcher
Id have to go with Water Pipit too....was tempted by Scandanavian Rock Pipit - as much on habitat as anything but does seem too grey above and clean white below
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Would you like to see it from the front?
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
Would agree on water pipit
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Naughty of me... yes its one of the three or 4 Rocks of presumed Scandi origin that appeared on the beach the other week.
It makes the point nicely though - chunky pipits with white wing bars and white outers are not necessarily Waters. The other two birds also appear in here. One as a mystery pipit and the other as SRP in the gallery. In theory littoralis and petrosus are not safely seperable in winter plumage, though the amount of pure white in this ones tail is a stong indicator of littoralis.
It called like a Rock pipit!
http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/data/527/4350Rock_pipit_-_littoralis.JPG
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3661
This one had gleaming white outer TF's
It makes the point nicely though - chunky pipits with white wing bars and white outers are not necessarily Waters. The other two birds also appear in here. One as a mystery pipit and the other as SRP in the gallery. In theory littoralis and petrosus are not safely seperable in winter plumage, though the amount of pure white in this ones tail is a stong indicator of littoralis.
It called like a Rock pipit!
http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/data/527/4350Rock_pipit_-_littoralis.JPG
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3661
This one had gleaming white outer TF's
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The diagnosibilty of littoralis (vs petrosus) is a somewhat vexed issue and some petrosus can certainly show some of the features sometimes regarded as characteristic of littoralis in winter, viz:
white and sharply defined wingbars
prominent supercillium behind the eye
greyish tones above
whitish outer tail feathers
However, I doubt that many petrosus can show all of these features at once and would assume Jane's bird, and most like it, to be genuine littoralis. I'm sure too that littoralis is actually a common winter visitor to most of the Uk and suspect that most inland records of Rock Pipits refer to this form.
The overwhelming majority of the Rock Pipits I see actually don't have black legs, I don't think this is related to geographical origin though. Almost all of the individuals I look at (at least in winter) show reddish brown legs; in fact the only time I see really black-legged birds is in the breeding season.
I'm sure too that a fair proportion of the Water Pipits reported are actually littoralis Rock.
Some littoralis are definitely indistinguishable from typical petrosus and some petrosus can definitely look very like littoralis but being pragmatic it's probably fair to assume that most birds with decent supers AND decent white wingbars AND whitish outer tail feathers do originate from Scandinavia.
Spud
white and sharply defined wingbars
prominent supercillium behind the eye
greyish tones above
whitish outer tail feathers
However, I doubt that many petrosus can show all of these features at once and would assume Jane's bird, and most like it, to be genuine littoralis. I'm sure too that littoralis is actually a common winter visitor to most of the Uk and suspect that most inland records of Rock Pipits refer to this form.
The overwhelming majority of the Rock Pipits I see actually don't have black legs, I don't think this is related to geographical origin though. Almost all of the individuals I look at (at least in winter) show reddish brown legs; in fact the only time I see really black-legged birds is in the breeding season.
I'm sure too that a fair proportion of the Water Pipits reported are actually littoralis Rock.
Some littoralis are definitely indistinguishable from typical petrosus and some petrosus can definitely look very like littoralis but being pragmatic it's probably fair to assume that most birds with decent supers AND decent white wingbars AND whitish outer tail feathers do originate from Scandinavia.
Spud
Brian Stone
A Stone chatting
Well in the second pic the supercillium has practically vanished, the legs are darker and the underparts no longer look white. It doesn't look especially odd for petrosus there.
I think the Collins guide is a bit misleading in its comparison of these taxa. On the plate the tail sides of petrosus are labelled as greyish buff-white. But you are drawn to the direct comparison made in the flight illustrations of petrosus and spinoletta where the outer tails are labeled white (spin) and greyish-white (pet). It also states that littoralis is virtually indistinguishable from petrosus in winter.
I think the Collins guide is a bit misleading in its comparison of these taxa. On the plate the tail sides of petrosus are labelled as greyish buff-white. But you are drawn to the direct comparison made in the flight illustrations of petrosus and spinoletta where the outer tails are labeled white (spin) and greyish-white (pet). It also states that littoralis is virtually indistinguishable from petrosus in winter.
Michael Frankis
conehead
Hi Spud & all,
A few queries . . .
1 Do UK breeding petrosus ever get seen away from their breeding grounds, or are they as sedentary as Tawny Owls?
2 Is there any (known) tendency for littoralis pipits from some areas (e.g. perhaps west Norway) to look more like petrosus, and for those from other areas (e.g. perhaps the Baltic) to look more like spinoletta? Or can the variation be linked to sex and/or age more than geography?
3 Anyone know if there's any ringing recoveries to show the origins of UK-wintering littoralis and spinoletta? (wish I had that new BTO migration atlas - but I haven't!)
Michael
A few queries . . .
1 Do UK breeding petrosus ever get seen away from their breeding grounds, or are they as sedentary as Tawny Owls?
2 Is there any (known) tendency for littoralis pipits from some areas (e.g. perhaps west Norway) to look more like petrosus, and for those from other areas (e.g. perhaps the Baltic) to look more like spinoletta? Or can the variation be linked to sex and/or age more than geography?
3 Anyone know if there's any ringing recoveries to show the origins of UK-wintering littoralis and spinoletta? (wish I had that new BTO migration atlas - but I haven't!)
Michael
Don't have the MIg Atlas to hand but I recall that most recoveries of littoralis are on the east coast of the Uk and originate from the Norwegian coast - however this might say as much about ringing activity as anything else.
I'm not aware of any evidence to suggest that littoralis differs significantly based on area of origin, and what little evidence I have suggests the contrary, though of course it might.
Mainland British petrosus are mainly sedentary but fairly long distance movements have been recorded in a few (presumably mostly first-years) and substantial emigration seems to occur in birds from the Northern Isles etc... (these were formerly called kleinschmidti but that race is often included within petrosus now).
Spud
I'm not aware of any evidence to suggest that littoralis differs significantly based on area of origin, and what little evidence I have suggests the contrary, though of course it might.
Mainland British petrosus are mainly sedentary but fairly long distance movements have been recorded in a few (presumably mostly first-years) and substantial emigration seems to occur in birds from the Northern Isles etc... (these were formerly called kleinschmidti but that race is often included within petrosus now).
Spud
Stephen Dunstan
Registered User
Spud's summary is pretty much what the migration atlas has to say. Some sources do suggest that plumage features of littoralis are clinal but I'm not sure if there is good evidence to support this.
The Pipits and Wagtails book, which I would have hoped would clear this up, didn't in my opinion. As I have said on Bird Forum before none of the photos in it seemed to relate to definite petrosus.
Stephen.
The Pipits and Wagtails book, which I would have hoped would clear this up, didn't in my opinion. As I have said on Bird Forum before none of the photos in it seemed to relate to definite petrosus.
Stephen.
Stephen Dunstan
Registered User
Another thought - in terms of recoveries a bird ringed in Sweden in Oct 94 was found near Blackpool in Feb 98. This isn't in the Migration Atlas, and shows littoralis turn up in this part of north west England at least.
Stephen.
Stephen.
Hi all,
Officially at least,littoralis is treated as a rarity here in Ireland.When I was at Tacumshin to see the original Water Pipit found on 1st November,there was a Rock Pipit in the area also,but this resembled petrosus:I presume that it could just as well have been a far from classic littoralis?
Oddly,as Water Pipit is a rarity here,I'd guess that most reported Waters actually are Waters,given the greater degree of detail required to get the record accepted.
Harry H
Officially at least,littoralis is treated as a rarity here in Ireland.When I was at Tacumshin to see the original Water Pipit found on 1st November,there was a Rock Pipit in the area also,but this resembled petrosus:I presume that it could just as well have been a far from classic littoralis?
Oddly,as Water Pipit is a rarity here,I'd guess that most reported Waters actually are Waters,given the greater degree of detail required to get the record accepted.
Harry H
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