Genetic Integrity. (1 Viewer)

How many UK birders have ticked the Peregrine Falcon (Falco peregrinus) on their lists, when in fact what they have really seen is only a hybrid? Quite a few I would imagine, especially when you consider that even their breeders are often unable to tell them apart.

A quick look at the 'For Sale' lists in falconry-related magazines reveals that Peregrines are frequently being crossed with a variety of other non-native birds of prey to produce purpose-bred hybrids. These include such species as Gyrs, Sakers, Lanners, Luggers etc., and just about any combination of these you care to mention. Recently there has also been a fad to produce a 'British' hybrid called a 'Perlin', which is a cross between a Peregrine and a Merlin.

But each time one of these hybrids is lost by a falconer, it becomes a potential mate for a truly wild Peregrine, with the result that although any offspring they produce may look and behave like a true Peregrine, they are NOT pure. In other words, the genetic integrity of all the species involved has been compromised -and none more so than the Peregrine Falcon!

I would have thought the main danger was with sightings of Gyrfalcers and Lanners/Sakers - claims of non White Morph Gyrs are treated very carefully for that very reason. I`m sure many escaped "Sakers" and "Lanners" relate to falconers hybrids. The pitfalls of Large Falcon Hybrids was discussed in great depth in Birding World a few years back - i`ll dig out the reference when I get home

I wonder if mr Morton is leading up to a suggestion that suspect raptors be culled? It may save some racing pigeons and/or game birds.

Whilst it is true, I am sure, that the Peregrine tick on mine or anyone's list might be tainted, I don't see how anyone should feel they have an "incorrect" tick.

If it looks like a horse, sounds like a horse and smells like a horse - well you are justified in ticking horse, rather than aberrant zebra, surely?

And with regard to purity - I think we can all get far too hung up on this if we're not careful.

In its most simplistic terms, if a full peregrine were to breed with a perlin, then statistically, half the offspring would be peregrine and half perlin.

Two perlins breeding would produce 50% perlin, 25% peregrine and 25% merlin.

OK, I know it's not really quite as simple as that, but species in the long run would tend to revert to type, as dominant characteristics take hold.

Where they don't, well that just becomes another species "x" years down the line.

And lets face it, if breeders can cross peregrines and merlins, then so can nature.

Frankly, I don't care that much to worry about it!

Birdman,

Do you mean Peregrine x Merlin by the term 'perlin'? Never come across it before.

Stephen.

Yes, I do Stephen, although I've never come across it before either, and simply cribbed it from Anthony Morton's original post.

Sandy Martin said:

I wonder if mr Morton is leading up to a suggestion that suspect raptors be culled? It may save some racing pigeons and/or game birds.

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I think the point of the issue raised by Mr morton has nothing to do with pigeons more a concern as the thread stated, genetic integrety.
There are in a word too many hybrid raptors being held by falconers and there are too many that escape into the wild.
You cannot improve on nature so why do people try ? The gyr falcon is the largest falcon in the world and as one contributor mentions in this thread the White morph gyr is very distinctive, yet the darker phase is somewhat similar to the prairie and peregrine falcon.
The issue of genetic integety is a serious one and although not totally linked with raptors it is the falconry birds that give the greatest threat to natural species.
The hybrid lists are long ranging from perlins- Peregrine/merlin gyr/merlin gyr/ prairie and gyr/ pere/lanner and so on !
Already there have been reports of redtail hawks breeding with buteo buteo.
We have seen the impact that non indigenous species can have, crayfish, mink, grey squirrel, coypu and zander, perhaps hybrids are not in some peoples opinion to be non indigenous but they can if allowed have an adverse affect.
Suricate.

Why single out Peregines? There are lots of other areas where this is relevant - geese, dabbling ducks, diving ducks, stiff tail ducks, partridges, quails all come to mind without giving it all that much thought. Some of these are much more of a known issue than Peregrines. Although several species of raptor and hybrids escape regularly I am not aware of that many wild bird and escaped pairings.

Stephen.

Stephen Dunstan said:

Why single out Peregines? There are lots of other areas where this is relevant - geese, dabbling ducks, diving ducks, stiff tail ducks, partridges, quails all come to mind without giving it all that much thought. Some of these are much more of a known issue than Peregrines. Although several species of raptor and hybrids escape regularly I am not aware of that many wild bird and escaped pairings.

Stephen.

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The original thread related to peregrine hybrids and was followed by the mention of gyrs. as I said there are other hybrid issues but the raptor related ones are usually discussed the most.
I have not heard of any figures being taken in relation to escaped hybrids/ non indigenous species breeding successes but certainly there could be a serious issue if left. A look at the reported lost birds on the IBR web site can give a rough figure to some of the birds.
The issue of the Ruddy duck has caused controversy between different parties and obviously the correct solution will always differ in opinion. But it is important that these issues are raised.
Suricate

birdman said:

And lets face it, if breeders can cross peregrines and merlins, then so can nature.

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Not in this instance - the cross has to be made by artificial insemination. Put a Peregrine and a Merlin together, and the Peregrine enjoys its dinner.

Michael

QUOTE=birdman

In its most simplistic terms, if a full peregrine were to breed with a perlin, then statistically, half the offspring would be peregrine and half perlin.

I think you are confusing statistics with genetics here. In a cross between a peregrine and a perlin, ALL the youngsters would be peregrine x perlin - in other words they would be 75% peregrine and 25% merlin.

Two perlins breeding together would produce 50% perlin, 25% peregrine and 25% merlin.

Not so. In this case the offspring would all be 50% peregrine and 50% merlin ie. 'pure' perlin.

By the way, the peregrine x merlin hybrid has been around for a few years now and they can change hands for several hundred pounds each. In fact financial gain seems to be the all too familiar reason why many of the raptor hybrids are bred in the first place.

I truly think we can get to carried away with the hybrid thing, the Gulls are bad enough, my peregrine tick stays as!!
bert.

When I mentioned this subject to a pigeon fancier workmate, he said he was delighted. I asked why and he replied that a Peregrine/Harris Hawk hybrid behaved like the hawk, was not so fast and stayed around a kill, rendering itself easy to shoot, and as a visibly non-native species had no protection under the WCA thus could be shot with impunity.

Joe North said:

When I mentioned this subject to a pigeon fancier workmate, he said he was delighted. I asked why and he replied that a Peregrine/Harris Hawk hybrid behaved like the hawk, was not so fast and stayed around a kill, rendering itself easy to shoot, and as a visibly non-native species had no protection under the WCA thus could be shot with impunity.

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Firstly there are no pere/harrishawks and secondly it is against the law to shoot any bird unless under licence or with land owners permission to shoot pest species.
It is stated in the thread in many cases a hybrid has been artificially inseminated Pere/ Merlin for obvious reasons, this may not stop a hybrid breeding with a wild species. It is illegal to shoot birds of prey ! so perhaps you can pass this on to your pigeon fancier friend as I am sure he wouldnt` like to be tarred with the same brush as so many gamekeepers !!!!
Suricate

It seems, at least after having read some german literature ,that on the continent no case is documented with Peregrine and Saker interbreeding in the wild (though they can in captivity , allthough it is very difficult to achieve a successfull pairing), or Peregrine and Merlin interbreeding in the wild or in captivity. There was one case in the wild, where a Peregrine male and a Saker female that had lost partners and lived and hunted in the same area, first tolerated and then also reacted to each other, but no breeding attempt was made.
But PeregrineXSaker hybrids have been reported to breed with Peregrines; with at least one case in Germany. So there was one known pair with a hybrid partner, out of a total of about 450 pairs in the end of the nineties. Up to now, I cannot see this as a big problem, but it is surely something to watch, as hybird birds are becoming more and more popular among falconers also here.

Are there any estimates or hard data how many hybrids enter into the peregrine population in UK?

Jörn

Michael Frankis said:

Not in this instance - the cross has to be made by artificial insemination. Put a Peregrine and a Merlin together, and the Peregrine enjoys its dinner.

Michael

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OK... fair enough!

(Shows what I know about raptors)

Anthony Morton said:

QUOTE=birdman

In its most simplistic terms, if a full peregrine were to breed with a perlin, then statistically, half the offspring would be peregrine and half perlin.

I think you are confusing statistics with genetics here. In a cross between a peregrine and a perlin, ALL the youngsters would be peregrine x perlin - in other words they would be 75% peregrine and 25% merlin.

Two perlins breeding together would produce 50% perlin, 25% peregrine and 25% merlin.

Not so. In this case the offspring would all be 50% peregrine and 50% merlin ie. 'pure' perlin.

By the way, the peregrine x merlin hybrid has been around for a few years now and they can change hands for several hundred pounds each. In fact financial gain seems to be the all too familiar reason why many of the raptor hybrids are bred in the first place.

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Yeah... soon as I read you reply, I realised what a ridiculous mistake I had made...

One should not, as I did, confuse the passing on of species dna (which would of course be half peregrine half merlin in a bred-cross!) with something like gender. Statistically, you would know what gender offspring are likely, but they would still all be crosses.

Thanks for putting me right, Anthony.

So, next question, would the relative dearth of "wild" perlins doom the hybrid to failure?


(edit: I've edited this post to remove another stupid question that has already been answered - I should pay more attention!)

QUOTE=Sandy Martin]I wonder if Mr Morton is leading up to a suggestion that suspect raptors be culled? It may save some racing pigeons and/or game birds.

Hi Sandy,

I'm not quite sure whether you're being serious here, or perhaps just trying to be clever and start an argument. I'm always willing to oblige with the latter, of course, but on this occasion I believe the subject is far too serious and important for a cheap personal point-scoring exchange to develop. I therefore hope you will agree to restrict any further postings in this debate to those of a more constructive nature.

If you read what I said in my original posting (and not what you think I might have said, or even what you wish I might have said), you will realise that removing any 'impure' peregrines based only on visual identification is simply not an option. This is because even the 'experts' - the people who breed and fly them - can't always tell a pure peregrine falcon from a peregrine hybrid by sight alone.

As I see it, therefore, the alternatives are:-

a) Declare 'open season' on anything that looks like a peregrine, N.B. THIS IS NOT AN OPTION, or

b) Leave them alone, which is surely what MUST happen, and allow nature to eventually recover its original position.

In my opinion, the genetic integrity of the UK's peregrine falcon population was compromised the first time one of them bred successfully with either a non-indigenous or hybrid falcon in the wild, because from that point onwards the peregrines' blood was tainted.

At the moment the best we can hope for is the introduction of strict controls governing the breeding and flying of these imported falcons and their associated hybrids, in order to prevent any further watering-down of our native species. To this end, I believe the UK's established bird protection organisations should be taking the lead and lobbying hard for this to become law. Over a considerable period of time it should be possible to 'breed out' the non-indigenous blood in this way and eventually return the UK's peregrine falcon population to its original and unadulterated purity.

This action will certainly not be popular in some quarters, particularly with the many 'back garden' breeders of these falcon and other assorted raptor hybrids, as they are currently able to command prices of anywhere between £200 - £1,000 per bird for their efforts!

In the meantime, as far as birders are concerned I suppose if a peregrine looks like a peregrine, then it is a peregrine. There really is no other alternative!

I think there needs to be some research carried out as to whether this hybridisation is happening in the wild stock or not. To make a hybrid falcon you need to have a teircel ejaculate into a hat, before artificially inseminating the flacon. It would be useful to know whether the hybridised birds are able to mate with wild falcons.
Is this info to hand? If not it is difficult to carry this discussion on any further than hypothetical speculation.

Ranger James said:

I think there needs to be some research carried out as to whether this hybridisation is happening in the wild stock or not. To make a hybrid falcon you need to have a teircel ejaculate into a hat, before artificially inseminating the flacon. It would be useful to know whether the hybridised birds are able to mate with wild falcons.
Is this info to hand? If not it is difficult to carry this discussion on any further than hypothetical speculation.

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I doubt very much if there is any info relating to hybrid breeding success with wild falcons.
Perhaps the issue may be hypothetical to a degree but the true facts are there are a high number of reported hybrids being lost along with the usual hawks ( Redtails and harris hawks ) IBR Web site.
So there could be reason for concern ? Or reason to assess the the need for hybrids in any species.
Suricate