I'm new to the forum and I am looking for a scope to supplement my binoculars. Through research I've convinced myself that I want a Kowa scope for general wildlife viewing and future digiscoping. I've narrowed the field down to the TSN663 with the 20-60X 9Z eyepiece or the TSN771 with the 25X TE-20 eyepiece. These two outfits can be had for similar prices. With larger animal viewing (dusk/dawn) one of the uses, performance in low light conditions are important for me. What are the pros/cons/expert opinions around 66mm objectives with ED glass vs. 77mm with non-ED?
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Kowa TSN663 vs. Kowa TSN771 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter mikejh
- Start date
hello Mike ,
Your request reminds me one of my longstanding "headache" questions before i plunged and chose ( at least my eyes did ..) a Kowa KSN 773 .
Being a simple candid newbeginner in birdwatching , mind that i can't answer your question .
By the way , i guess that many of experienced people might recall that you and only you know what is your needs and that your eyes , your wallet ..and your back (if you hike a bit ) will decide .
If you do not mind , i dare sharing my own experience , recalling you that i am a beginner .Just in case that could help you to answer by yourself your own questions.
A few years ago , i bought binoculars for general wildlife viewing . Using them especially when hiking in forest and Southernfrench alps ( Fox , deer, chamois, alp ibex ,moufflon ,marmot ,passerines,eagles , vultures,bearded vulture..) and sometimes for watching birds in the Camargue deltas :herons , flamingos ..
For mammals , passerines and birds of prey : i missed a scope only once in 5 or 6 years !! when a group of chamois females with her year kids was keeping far in distance .Encountering moving Mammals ,passerines ,or birds of prey ,was so quick and "unpredictable" that only "ready to shoot" binoculars could help me .
For birdwatching along lakes like Der Lake or river deltas like the Camargue : my binoculars kept me blind ..
A scope being an important supplement to binoculars i decided to buy one in late 2009.
Should it be a Kowa 661 , or 663 ? or 771 or 773 ? what a headache ..
I wanted it :
- lightweight to use it during my hikes but it requires buying a carbon fiber tripod to keep the bundle light ..
- strong , reliable and longstanding.
- should it be with or without Ed glass ?
I read many reviews , and threads in several forums .
What did i learn ?
- For a better light in dusk/dawn : the bigger the diameter , the bigger the amount of light .. with the restriction of weight ..(a Kowa 881 /883 is much heavier than a Kowa 661/663)
- For a better viewing at extreme conditions ( facing sun , high magnitude x50 ) : ED glass are better .
- For digiscoping : ED glass are necessary .
- Dividing the price difference between an Ed scope and an non-ED scope (500€ / 750 $ )by the number of using years (15 Years) : no buyers of ED scope regret their choice when it is not necessary true for non-ed scope buyers .
At first , i was thinking about buying a Kowa 661 .Because it is light and compact and cost-efficient: dreaming to bring it with a carbon tripod in my backpack when hiking .
Then i had the opportunity to try a Kowa Tsn 661 and a Kowa TSN 773 (Ed glasses ) side by side .
At first glance ,even before putting my eyes on them , the choice was nearly done :
IMH0 77 series is much stronger , much better built than 66 series .
For me 66 series is an old generation when 77 series is a new generation with all the improvements ( body built , materials , glasses , focus system ..)
Then viewing with x30ww and x20-60 eyepieces : i found the 773 much brighter than the 661 and more comfortable ( i wear glasses )
I then bought the Kowa 773 without any hesitation . And i do not regret it .
It is compact and light and so bright .
For my eyes comfort , i chose it with a x30wide . But sometimes i need a extra magnitude . Even if x30 wide is for myself enough for birdwatching and Bird ID , i think i shall buy the zoom .
That said , for me and only for me :
- 77 series is better than 66 series : stronger (magnesium body versus polycarbonate ), brighter , better focus system ,better built , newer generation .
- ED glasses is a choice that you can't regret .
IMHO : let me ask you two simple-minded and idiot questions :
- So long you pay the extra cost for ED glasses : why should it be on an "outfashioned "polycarbonate body like Kowa 66 series rather than on a stronger built 77 series ?
- So long you pay the newgeneration strong magnesium body with dual focus system of Kowa 77 series : why not paying the extra cost (50$ /year ) for ED glasses that nobody does regret and that is necessary for digiscoping .
Choosing a scope : Might the kowa TSN 773 be for you ?
Do you really need a scope ? when IMHO binoculars are more suitable for large animals viewing ( ..more quick-responsive to watch moving animals ..)
you and only you do know it
Sincerely yours and enjoy your future scope whatever your choice ..
Your request reminds me one of my longstanding "headache" questions before i plunged and chose ( at least my eyes did ..) a Kowa KSN 773 .
Being a simple candid newbeginner in birdwatching , mind that i can't answer your question .
By the way , i guess that many of experienced people might recall that you and only you know what is your needs and that your eyes , your wallet ..and your back (if you hike a bit ) will decide .
If you do not mind , i dare sharing my own experience , recalling you that i am a beginner .Just in case that could help you to answer by yourself your own questions.
A few years ago , i bought binoculars for general wildlife viewing . Using them especially when hiking in forest and Southernfrench alps ( Fox , deer, chamois, alp ibex ,moufflon ,marmot ,passerines,eagles , vultures,bearded vulture..) and sometimes for watching birds in the Camargue deltas :herons , flamingos ..
For mammals , passerines and birds of prey : i missed a scope only once in 5 or 6 years !! when a group of chamois females with her year kids was keeping far in distance .Encountering moving Mammals ,passerines ,or birds of prey ,was so quick and "unpredictable" that only "ready to shoot" binoculars could help me .
For birdwatching along lakes like Der Lake or river deltas like the Camargue : my binoculars kept me blind ..
A scope being an important supplement to binoculars i decided to buy one in late 2009.
Should it be a Kowa 661 , or 663 ? or 771 or 773 ? what a headache ..
I wanted it :
- lightweight to use it during my hikes but it requires buying a carbon fiber tripod to keep the bundle light ..
- strong , reliable and longstanding.
- should it be with or without Ed glass ?
I read many reviews , and threads in several forums .
What did i learn ?
- For a better light in dusk/dawn : the bigger the diameter , the bigger the amount of light .. with the restriction of weight ..(a Kowa 881 /883 is much heavier than a Kowa 661/663)
- For a better viewing at extreme conditions ( facing sun , high magnitude x50 ) : ED glass are better .
- For digiscoping : ED glass are necessary .
- Dividing the price difference between an Ed scope and an non-ED scope (500€ / 750 $ )by the number of using years (15 Years) : no buyers of ED scope regret their choice when it is not necessary true for non-ed scope buyers .
At first , i was thinking about buying a Kowa 661 .Because it is light and compact and cost-efficient: dreaming to bring it with a carbon tripod in my backpack when hiking .
Then i had the opportunity to try a Kowa Tsn 661 and a Kowa TSN 773 (Ed glasses ) side by side .
At first glance ,even before putting my eyes on them , the choice was nearly done :
IMH0 77 series is much stronger , much better built than 66 series .
For me 66 series is an old generation when 77 series is a new generation with all the improvements ( body built , materials , glasses , focus system ..)
Then viewing with x30ww and x20-60 eyepieces : i found the 773 much brighter than the 661 and more comfortable ( i wear glasses )
I then bought the Kowa 773 without any hesitation . And i do not regret it .
It is compact and light and so bright .
For my eyes comfort , i chose it with a x30wide . But sometimes i need a extra magnitude . Even if x30 wide is for myself enough for birdwatching and Bird ID , i think i shall buy the zoom .
That said , for me and only for me :
- 77 series is better than 66 series : stronger (magnesium body versus polycarbonate ), brighter , better focus system ,better built , newer generation .
- ED glasses is a choice that you can't regret .
IMHO : let me ask you two simple-minded and idiot questions :
- So long you pay the extra cost for ED glasses : why should it be on an "outfashioned "polycarbonate body like Kowa 66 series rather than on a stronger built 77 series ?
- So long you pay the newgeneration strong magnesium body with dual focus system of Kowa 77 series : why not paying the extra cost (50$ /year ) for ED glasses that nobody does regret and that is necessary for digiscoping .
Choosing a scope : Might the kowa TSN 773 be for you ?
Do you really need a scope ? when IMHO binoculars are more suitable for large animals viewing ( ..more quick-responsive to watch moving animals ..)
you and only you do know it
Sincerely yours and enjoy your future scope whatever your choice ..
Last edited:
RJM
Don't Worry, Be Happy!
Welcome and Happy 2010 to both our new members!
Mike, in low light/non-digiscoping scenarios having ED glass is not nearly as important as aperture to give you a big, bright exit pupil at higher magnification. You didn't say exactly what the budget it is but if you are looking at spending close to $1300 total for either of these and you don't need to use glasses at the eyepiece, let me offer you this FAR better alternative; the Nikon ED80 w/25x-75x zoom! I had one and it is optically superb! If I were not into digiscoping and needed every last photon of light I'd still own it since I still have its baby brother, the ED50. The only scope that is better is the Kowa 883 Prominar that I have now.
best,
Rick
Mike, in low light/non-digiscoping scenarios having ED glass is not nearly as important as aperture to give you a big, bright exit pupil at higher magnification. You didn't say exactly what the budget it is but if you are looking at spending close to $1300 total for either of these and you don't need to use glasses at the eyepiece, let me offer you this FAR better alternative; the Nikon ED80 w/25x-75x zoom! I had one and it is optically superb! If I were not into digiscoping and needed every last photon of light I'd still own it since I still have its baby brother, the ED50. The only scope that is better is the Kowa 883 Prominar that I have now.
best,
Rick
stereotruckdriver
Well-known member
Just a note. The 600 series I have the 601 are poly bodies not the 66 series they are excellent in both ED and non. Bryce...
RJM
Don't Worry, Be Happy!
Hi Bryce,
I am afraid you are mistaken. The 66x series is definitely carbon fiber reinforced polycarbonate as it shares the same lineage and design as the older 820 series. But any implication that the 66x series is somewhat less robust is bunk IMO. Remember Zeiss was the first to use this technolgy and still does in most of it premier sports optics.
cheers,
Rick
I am afraid you are mistaken. The 66x series is definitely carbon fiber reinforced polycarbonate as it shares the same lineage and design as the older 820 series. But any implication that the 66x series is somewhat less robust is bunk IMO. Remember Zeiss was the first to use this technolgy and still does in most of it premier sports optics.
cheers,
Rick
stereotruckdriver
Well-known member
My bad Rick, I thought when I checked them out they were indeed metal. Build quality was second to nun as is the 600 series!!! The 663 , I wish now I would have gotten it but, have the Pentax PF 65ED A with XW EP's and it is a very serviceable scope!!! Bryce. P.S. Since the 66 series is indeed carbon fiber it's as durable feeling as any metal bodied scope I've had my hands on!!!
Russ Jones
Well-known member
i have a 664 and love it. If I didn't get such a good deal on it I would have gotten a fieldscope ed82, by far the best scope for the money out there... and optically, as good as any to my eyes.
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