-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Thylacine (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter T0ny
- Start date
T0ny
Okillre Member
Tony,
Since posting my query, I've looked at the National Geographic site, and the cloning idea seems quite serious - all they need is the finance. Like you, though, I'd still prefer some wild ones, though maybe it would be better if they weren't found - I'd hate the thought of the last ones ending up in a zoo 'for their own protection'.
Tony
Since posting my query, I've looked at the National Geographic site, and the cloning idea seems quite serious - all they need is the finance. Like you, though, I'd still prefer some wild ones, though maybe it would be better if they weren't found - I'd hate the thought of the last ones ending up in a zoo 'for their own protection'.
Tony
Chuck A Wulla
Member
I've seen a recent article explaining that Thylacine fetuses preserved in alcohol may have enough usable DNA for cloning to be feasible, but so far attempts have failed. Very disappointing. Some one suggested it as a possibility for a hot new pet craze.
I'm reading a book by Scott Weidensaul...."The Ghost With Trembling Wings"...it's about the search for lost species. He's just now speaking quite extensively about Thylacine's, the chances of their survival and the cloning project. At this point he's in the hills and forests of Tasmania searching and has spoken to quite a few experts. There was one part where he spoke with a well known scientist (don't remember his name but will look it up if you'd like) and this guy said the alcohol would preserve the cells, but they'd collapse when you tried to "reconstitute" them. He said this project was similar to putting together a jigsaw puzzle with thousands of tiny pieces all the same color and similar in shape. It's got something to do with DNA strands, getting all of them in the right order along with the junk DNA strands. Anyway, if they find a Thylacine in this book, I'll let you know. It seems that most of the "evidence" they have is scat and one set of footprints so far. I will bet they don't find one, though, because if they had found one, we would've heard about it.
Donna
Donna
Tony, the book that I have doesn't have an ISBN...as a matter of fact, got it on Amazon, it's a writers proof book or something. I think it was supposed to be released in the last half of 2002. The title and author are above. He devotes a whole chapter or more to the Thylacine...I finished that chapter last night and they didn't see one. Scientists heavily involved with cloning and the like don't offer much hope for the success of this project...
If you'd like, I can send the book to you when I'm done, shouldn't be long. You can simply return it when you're done. Not a problem for me...email your address to me and I'll see that you get it.
Donna
If you'd like, I can send the book to you when I'm done, shouldn't be long. You can simply return it when you're done. Not a problem for me...email your address to me and I'll see that you get it.
Donna
steve_nova
Well-known member
Since the server change over, my post seems to have been neatly, almost surgically removed from this thread?
I will put up the Thylacine website link again for anyone who's intrested.
http://www.naturalworlds.org/thylacine/
I will put up the Thylacine website link again for anyone who's intrested.
http://www.naturalworlds.org/thylacine/
Ashley beolens
Breeding the next generation of birders.
Ona similar note I see thet in Africa they have recreated a heard of Zebra/Horses that were made extinct by man (front half Zebra back half Horse) Its not going to be long till we get Great Auk and Dodo back (more to tick)
Ashley beolens
Breeding the next generation of birders.
look at TOnys avatar
Thats one
Thats one
T0ny
Okillre Member
Andrew,
It's often known as the Tasmanian Wolf or Tasmanian Tiger, a marsupial carnivore, believed extinct since 1936 but with a few reports since then of sightings in the wild. Follow steve_nova's link to the Thylacine Museum for more info, if you're interested. I saw a TV documentary on it some years back, and it rather appealed to me.
Tony
It's often known as the Tasmanian Wolf or Tasmanian Tiger, a marsupial carnivore, believed extinct since 1936 but with a few reports since then of sightings in the wild. Follow steve_nova's link to the Thylacine Museum for more info, if you're interested. I saw a TV documentary on it some years back, and it rather appealed to me.
Tony
Ashley beolens
Breeding the next generation of birders.
Thats the stripy fella, cheers3
Just found this thread - very interesting exchanges everyone.
Apparently the thylacine is a bit like Elvis - most probably not with us anymore, but still people occasionally report a sighting. There have been some convincing sounding reports from some fairly reputable sounding observers, but I suspect that the Tasi tiger has sadly left the building.
TonyK is correct, they are/were a beast of open eucalypt woodland with a grassy understorey, and it's arguable that the remaining habitat in Taz is too much of the temperate rainforest type.
The grassy woodland of Australia is so fragmented that even if the beast could be cloned, there would be nowhere to reintroduce it where it wouldn't come into direct conflict with sheep farmers - who knows, perhaps it could become the first animal to become extinct twice!
And TonyK again, thanks for raising the issue that there are many species of mammal currently classed as critically endangered, endangered and vulnerable in Australia, and we've really got all on trying to find the resources and methods to prevent further land clearing and ameliorate invasive weeds, feral animals and a multitude of other environmental problems as it is.
Also, one further thought on this (and this was the bit that really set the alarm bells ringing over here when the news broke last year); if you are able to clone an extinct species and have access to its genetic material then you automatically remove one of the major reasons for conservation of extant species. With the entire extinction argument conveniently out of the way (for now no species can be extinct) developers and less enlightened governments would have a major obstacle removed with regard to land clearing, habitat destruction, environmental exploitation and so on. Simply stick a Gurney's Pitta in a jar and get on with clearing the forest. For this reason above all else, I hope we never see this kind of activity being funded or successful.
If it ever happens then we could all end up birding in a laboratory!
Cor, didn't mean to sound so pessimistic!
Cheers all,
Apparently the thylacine is a bit like Elvis - most probably not with us anymore, but still people occasionally report a sighting. There have been some convincing sounding reports from some fairly reputable sounding observers, but I suspect that the Tasi tiger has sadly left the building.
TonyK is correct, they are/were a beast of open eucalypt woodland with a grassy understorey, and it's arguable that the remaining habitat in Taz is too much of the temperate rainforest type.
The grassy woodland of Australia is so fragmented that even if the beast could be cloned, there would be nowhere to reintroduce it where it wouldn't come into direct conflict with sheep farmers - who knows, perhaps it could become the first animal to become extinct twice!
And TonyK again, thanks for raising the issue that there are many species of mammal currently classed as critically endangered, endangered and vulnerable in Australia, and we've really got all on trying to find the resources and methods to prevent further land clearing and ameliorate invasive weeds, feral animals and a multitude of other environmental problems as it is.
Also, one further thought on this (and this was the bit that really set the alarm bells ringing over here when the news broke last year); if you are able to clone an extinct species and have access to its genetic material then you automatically remove one of the major reasons for conservation of extant species. With the entire extinction argument conveniently out of the way (for now no species can be extinct) developers and less enlightened governments would have a major obstacle removed with regard to land clearing, habitat destruction, environmental exploitation and so on. Simply stick a Gurney's Pitta in a jar and get on with clearing the forest. For this reason above all else, I hope we never see this kind of activity being funded or successful.
If it ever happens then we could all end up birding in a laboratory!
Cor, didn't mean to sound so pessimistic!
Cheers all,
steve_nova
Well-known member
Simon, I hadn't thought of how far reaching the consequences of cloning could be (not that I am an advocate of cloning anyway).
You have just given the strongest possible argument against it by the suggestion of habitat clearance in exchange for a genetic bank of organisms that technically, would no longer be extinct - regardless if they were extant or not.
Thank's for your reply, and thanks for that new word, ameliorate!
You have just given the strongest possible argument against it by the suggestion of habitat clearance in exchange for a genetic bank of organisms that technically, would no longer be extinct - regardless if they were extant or not.
Thank's for your reply, and thanks for that new word, ameliorate!
Steve and Tony,
Cheers for the comments, it is a bit worrying isn't it, and I have the uncomfortable feeling that we haven't heard the last of issues such as these.
Ameliorate is a bit of a favourite at the moment, seems to work well on district councils, funding bodies and so on. If anyone else has any buzz words they'd like to share, I'd be happy to add them to my collection.
Cheers,
Cheers for the comments, it is a bit worrying isn't it, and I have the uncomfortable feeling that we haven't heard the last of issues such as these.
Ameliorate is a bit of a favourite at the moment, seems to work well on district councils, funding bodies and so on. If anyone else has any buzz words they'd like to share, I'd be happy to add them to my collection.
Cheers,
Ashley beolens
Breeding the next generation of birders.
Having read Simons comments on cloning (a few above this) I would like you all to consider the possability that if this were the case then why would we now be worried about losing species to extinction when we could home any animal on the verge of extinction in a zoo or wild animal park?
The reason is we as humans like to see animals/birds and other wildlife in the settings it should be in.
Obviously there would be a small minority who would think along those lines but as a supposedly advanced civilised world community our ethics and morals would stand to protect the endangerd, as we do now. (although this is not very much).
p.s I actually agree with simon that we should be careful but I thought I would open the debate up more.
The reason is we as humans like to see animals/birds and other wildlife in the settings it should be in.
Obviously there would be a small minority who would think along those lines but as a supposedly advanced civilised world community our ethics and morals would stand to protect the endangerd, as we do now. (although this is not very much).
p.s I actually agree with simon that we should be careful but I thought I would open the debate up more.
MikeMules
Well-known member
More information on the attempt to clone the Thylacine can be found at the Australian Museum's website.
I have spoken with people who have either had views of what they consider is possibly a thylacine, or a large mammal (or traces thereof) they cannot identify, in Victoria. All these people are reliable observers who can readily identify foxes, cats and dingos when they see them. However, all video footage of purported Thylacines is either uninterpretable, or is patently a fox or dog. There have been no skeletal remains of Thylacines found in Victoria (at least from post-european settlement), and thylacine skulls are very distinctive. On balance, I would say that mainland sightings do not point to thylacines still living.
Apparently, they may have been brought over to the mainland by the various Acclimatisation societies that flourished in the middle of the nineteenth centuries. Amongst their many triumphs were the introduction of foxes, blackbirds, sparrows, starlings, turtledoves and mynahs to Australia, as well as the translocation of native species to other parts of the country: kookaburras to Western Australia, and possibly thylacines to Victoria.
On the matter of cloning, I think it will prove impossible to successfully clone a thylacine. There are a variety of reasons why, but chief among them are the impossibility of putting together a complete genome from the fragmented DNA - the thylacine foetuses were fixed in formaldehyde prior to being placed in ethanol, which causes damage to DNA. It may also prove impossible to correctly arrange cloned DNA into correct chromosomal order. If all this can be done, then there is the problem of having no suitable egg donor to place the DNA into (if one is found, it would still have the mitochondria from the donor species', meaning it would not be a true clone of the thylacine. And even if all this could be overcome, there would still not be a suitable womb to carry the egg.
(Having said all that, I am reminded of the expert who predicted that trains could not travel over 100 km/h because all the passengers would asphyxiate).
As to whether we should clone, I must admit I tend towards Michael Archer's (head of Aust. Museum) view that if we have within our powers to undo a wrong such as the extinction of the thylacine, then we must attempt it. The argument that if we can clone extinct species means we don't need to worry about endangered species going extinct, is akin to the argument that since we can perform liver transplants, we can drink all we want and not worry about the consequences, because "it'll be right". The worry as to whether or not it would be treated as a plaything is moot, in the face of so many endangered species that only survive because of captive breeding, and with so many species (bird and mammal) already kept for our pleasure. (and having offended all dog, cat and budgie owners, I'll shut up now)
I have spoken with people who have either had views of what they consider is possibly a thylacine, or a large mammal (or traces thereof) they cannot identify, in Victoria. All these people are reliable observers who can readily identify foxes, cats and dingos when they see them. However, all video footage of purported Thylacines is either uninterpretable, or is patently a fox or dog. There have been no skeletal remains of Thylacines found in Victoria (at least from post-european settlement), and thylacine skulls are very distinctive. On balance, I would say that mainland sightings do not point to thylacines still living.
Apparently, they may have been brought over to the mainland by the various Acclimatisation societies that flourished in the middle of the nineteenth centuries. Amongst their many triumphs were the introduction of foxes, blackbirds, sparrows, starlings, turtledoves and mynahs to Australia, as well as the translocation of native species to other parts of the country: kookaburras to Western Australia, and possibly thylacines to Victoria.
On the matter of cloning, I think it will prove impossible to successfully clone a thylacine. There are a variety of reasons why, but chief among them are the impossibility of putting together a complete genome from the fragmented DNA - the thylacine foetuses were fixed in formaldehyde prior to being placed in ethanol, which causes damage to DNA. It may also prove impossible to correctly arrange cloned DNA into correct chromosomal order. If all this can be done, then there is the problem of having no suitable egg donor to place the DNA into (if one is found, it would still have the mitochondria from the donor species', meaning it would not be a true clone of the thylacine. And even if all this could be overcome, there would still not be a suitable womb to carry the egg.
(Having said all that, I am reminded of the expert who predicted that trains could not travel over 100 km/h because all the passengers would asphyxiate).
As to whether we should clone, I must admit I tend towards Michael Archer's (head of Aust. Museum) view that if we have within our powers to undo a wrong such as the extinction of the thylacine, then we must attempt it. The argument that if we can clone extinct species means we don't need to worry about endangered species going extinct, is akin to the argument that since we can perform liver transplants, we can drink all we want and not worry about the consequences, because "it'll be right". The worry as to whether or not it would be treated as a plaything is moot, in the face of so many endangered species that only survive because of captive breeding, and with so many species (bird and mammal) already kept for our pleasure. (and having offended all dog, cat and budgie owners, I'll shut up now)
Similar threads
