Taxonomic questions (1 Viewer)

I just love taxonomy Today I spent an hour aligning my life list with the 2003 S&M world list. Most of the changes were a change of genus - like Ceryle torquata changed to Megaceryle torquata and Ara manilata to Orthopsittaca manilata. Was this worth doing?
Now here are some things that I found confusing. On my list I had Greater Flamingo (Phoenicopterus ruber), but S&M has P. ruber as Caribbean Flamingo, and Greater Flamingo as P. roseus. Which one is the one I saw?(Off the coast of Georgetown).
Another question. I can't find the Grey Hawk (Asturina nitida) on the S&M list. Did it have a major name change, or is it just missing?
Last question. Is the Southern House Wren (Troglodytes musculus) recognized by any of the authorities, or is it just put with the House Wren (Troglodytes aedon)? Also, is the 2003 S&M list in exact taxonomic order?(Woodpeckers before kingfishers and toucans; cuckoos before parrots; oropendolas before orioles and blackbirds.(My checklist of the birds of Guyana has them the other way around.)
Please bear with all my questions, I guess I'm just a perfectionist when it comes to my life list. You don't have to answer them if they are too annoying.

Flamingo

Hi Chris
I can only help you with the flamingo. Great Flamingo is split now into Carribean Flamingo (range: Americas) and Great Flamingo (Europe, Africa, Asia). In Switzerland the split is not yet accepted, but I guess it's just a matter of time. So, unless you haven't seen a european vagrant (which is very unlikely), you have seen Carribean Flamingo.
Greetings from Switzerland and I hope you get more help from american taxonomy specialists.

André

Thanks very much André!

Hi Chris,
I'll try to take the questions in order as the SM is the one I usually use and the list you have probably came through me and was originally from Rolf de Buy's ornitaxa.com site. By the way, there is one mistake I noticed only recently. Cut out Patagioenas pallidiceps and insert it after Columba leucomela and change the genus name back to Columba. This is not a new world pigeon and the ornitaxa.com indication of the genus change is in error.

First, a general notion about sequences in the various lists. Each of the major lists, be it, Sibley-Monroe, Clement's or Howard & Moore have their own slightly differing vision of how birds should be listed and in what sequence. All have evolved and continue to evolve with mostly incremental changes with each of their updates. The SM has not done any major sequence changes since 1993 and the 1996 list used in this Database mostly reaffirms that earlier sequence. I expect all of these lists to undergo more radical changes as cladal analyses gain more and more weight in the assignation of inter-group relationships. Probably, the list that currently exists having given most thought lately to rearranging these relationships is the Howard & Moore. This is a rather complex subject so I will just let it go after these few cursory, and superficial comments.

Formerly, both the Clement's and the SM listed Greater Flamingo (Phoenicopterus ruber) bitypic, with races roseus (Old world birds), and the nominate (New world birds). Both lists have now split and the race roseus has maintained the English Common Name of Greater Flamingo, while the race ruber is now called Caribbean Flamingo, which is the bird you see in Guyana.

Asturina nitida = Buteo nitidus on your SM 2003. This species has been jumping around between Asturina and Buteo for years.

Race musculus of the Wren: It is considered on all three major lists as a race of Troglodytes aedon.

One last thought, if you are searching for the one definitive list and the one definitive sequence you will be disappointed. Many of the differences, especially in elevating single races out of one species and making it a good species, are often determined on opinion and according to if whoever makes up the lists, or the guide books, accept the rationale for the change. So, get used to these differences, the "One List" is only pie-in-the-sky!

Thanks for that Steve. So the Grey Hawk changed to Grey-lined Hawk?

Jacamar said:

Thanks for that Steve. So the Grey Hawk changed to Grey-lined Hawk?

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Chris, both names are used more or less interchangeably and are equally as valid as far as I am concerned.

Jacamar,
As Steve mentioned, the Southern House Wren (Troglodytes musculus) is just a race of the House Wren. I added a column on my database to record subspecies / races. You might find this helpful later when a subspecie is elevated to a full specie, it is easy to see which one you actually have on your list.

I think thats a good idea, Dave. I don't know what race I have seen of most of the birds on my list. Is there a website that has that kind of information? Also, what race of the Black-spotted Barbet is this?

Steve, I just downloaded the S&M world list from ornitaxa.com. It is not the same one that I have, but I think the format is better.

Chris,
If you have the list from me (and I think you do), you are mistaken. The format of the present list downloadable from the ornitaxa site is only two-column, I have maintained a four-column format and it is much more searchable because of this. Moreover, the list as downloadable from the ornitaxa site is not updated to September 2003 and the one you got from me is.

I don't remember recieving a list from you, Steve. My original one was four column, but I am pretty sure that I downloaded it. Do you know what date you sent it?

Also, could you sometime look at my life list (the link in my signature), and see what taxonomic authority's list it is closest to? I am used to the order that it is in, and don't want to change the order too much, but I want it to be based on one authority.(Is this possible?) My life list is taken from my Birds of Guyana checklist which uses AOU, Ridgely and Tudor, S&M, and Traylor.

Jacamar said:

I don't remember recieving a list from you, Steve. My original one was four column, but I am pretty sure that I downloaded it. Do you know what date you sent it?

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Chris, you probably downloaded that list from one of the threads regarding Taxonomy on BirdForum. I was the one that put the file there, so it is the same list. I have, in any eventuality, resent the list to your Inbox.

Jacamar said:

I think thats a good idea, Dave. I don't know what race I have seen of most of the birds on my list. Is there a website that has that kind of information? Also, what race of the Black-spotted Barbet is this?

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Chris,
I don't see a thumbnail for the Barbet. In any case, in your neck of the wood it is the nominate race Capito niger niger.

There are a couple of useful sites on the web. Both have their strong points and their drawbacks for various reasons. They are:


http://worldbirdinfo.net/
http://www.bsc-eoc.org/avibase/avibase.jsp?pg=home&lang=EN


Because they do have drawbacks, and if you are really interested in Taxonomy, you should perhaps buy the text copies of both the Clement's list, as well as the Howard & Moore. I would not recommend buying the text copy of the Sibley-Monroe that is more or less hopelessly out of date by now (1990) though they did publish an addendum in 1993. The Sibley-Monroe I hope will get it's act together and republish a revised text list if it does not want to become irrelevant.

Here is another useful link:

http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCBaseline.html

Thanks for those links, Steve. Just in case you want to see the picture, you can see it here. http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.e...birds/Capitonidae/Capito_niger.jpg/medium.jpg

Jacamar said:

So the Grey Hawk changed to Grey-lined Hawk?

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1) Two species:

Grey-lined Hawk = Asturina (Buteo) nitida, with races costaricensis* and pallida.
Grey Hawk = Asturina (Buteo) plagiata, monotypic.

* costaricensis has variably been placed in A. nitida or A plagiata.

OR

2) One species:

Grey Hawk = Asturina (Buteo) nitida, with races costaricensis, pallida and plagiata.


So, it depends a bit on you, if you choose to follow the split between plagiata and nitida or not.

I can only recommend that you use subspecies AND locality, as it is the only way you really have a chance of changing anything in the future. Both the House Wren and the Black-spotted Barbet are clear candidates for splitting.

When is the next S&M list scheduled to come out? Or doesn't anyone know yet?

Jacamar said:

When is the next S&M list scheduled to come out? Or doesn't anyone know yet?

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Chris,
Information about the status of work on the SM is nil. I haven't heard that there is anything in the works, not that that means there isn't. I only know that if they don't get their act together sometime soon they will doom themselves to irrelevance by leaving the field to the Clement's and Howard & Moore.

wintibird said:

Hi Chris
I can only help you with the flamingo. Great Flamingo is split now into Carribean Flamingo (range: Americas) and Great Flamingo (Europe, Africa, Asia). In Switzerland the split is not yet accepted, but I guess it's just a matter of time. So, unless you haven't seen a european vagrant (which is very unlikely), you have seen Carribean Flamingo.
Greetings from Switzerland and I hope you get more help from american taxonomy specialists.

André

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There's something I don't get. I know that I'm gonna sound pretty stupid, but Jacamar said that he saw the flamingo off the coast of Georgetown, right? Isn't that in South Africa? (I know, I'm a dummy) So was it likely to be a Carribean Flamingo? Unless you're saying that Carribean Flamingos are more likely to be seen off the coast of Georgetown than a 'european vagrant'. Is that what you mean, Andre?
OK, I guess Jacamar was talking about somewhere else when he said
Georgetown.
Actually I should try to find out where Georgetown is.

OK, It's in Guyana, not South Africa. Sorry. I don't know what made me think that.
But still, Carribean Flamingo over there? I'm going to have to do some real studying.