• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

What is optimum telephoto for hummers? (1 Viewer)

wings

Well-known member
Since there are a number of photographers on this forum who have obviously photographed hummers, I am wondering what focal length lens you are using. I find for my 357 mm lens (camera + teleconverter) I really need to get closer than 20 feet to a feeder (see my photos posted under the "they are brave thread"). With larger birds, this distance becomes less critical.

I shall be getting a Canon 20D with a 100-300 mm zoom lens (effectively giving me a 480 mm focal length) and hope this will be an improvement. The max. 1/8000 sec shutter of the Canon should be a BIG help in freezing those 60 wingbeats/sec.
 
The "freezing" usually comes from strobes (electronic flash). The people who do this for a living usually use multiple strobes. I don't know anything about the new digital SLRs, but with a conventional film camera (and digital cameras usually mimic film cameras), the speed of even the fastest shutter is insufficient to really freeze the wings and it would require an aperture setting unlikely to be found on any long zoom or telephoto lens. Once you accept the need for electronic flash, then you are limited to certain maximum shutter speeds, typically 1/60 or 1/125 sec, depending upon the type of shutter. If you use something like a Hasselblad, with a leaf-type shutter in each interchangeable lens, then you can use strobes at higher shutter speeds, but such shutters usually top out at 1/500 sec -- and that setting is likely not very accurate. In any case, it's the flash that freezes the wings, not the shutter. Therefore, for shooting hummingbirds with a conventional camera, exceptionally high shutter speeds are irrelevant. I suspect the same is true with even the best digital SLRs, but I'd be delighted to learn I'm wrong.
 
Last edited:
I'll second what Curtis says about the flash being what "freezes" the wings in flight (and you need to have the hummer in the shade for this to work). So, the flash is what effectively restricts the distance you can be from the hummer and therefore which lens to use. I find that 200 to 300 is perfect for this type of photo. A longer lens is helpful when you are looking for "perched" photos of a hummer.
 
Interesting comments. My old Vivitar 285 Zoom Thyristor (which I don't use anymore) can attain a flash duration of 1/30,000 sec. in auto mode, but even the Canon 20D synchronizes at 1/250 sec. and the Nikon D70 at 1/500 sec. So if the flash duration and the camera shutter speed dont synchronize, I would think that the slower speed controls, in which case one cannot "freeze" the bird's movements. And yet, we sometimes see photos of some very nicely "frozen" wingbeats.

And yes, a master and slave flash setup is used by many.
 
Taken with no flash at all. I would point out though that where it was taken there is far more light than in most gardens. I would not expect to do this in a shady spot.

Black-chinnedMaleDMSP.jpg
 
2 ways of stopping wing beats, first the strobes (flashes) I use 4 of them when I am trying for the stop wing, but, if the ambient light is bright enough you can achieve the wind stop at shutter speeds of 1250 or higher, generaly I try for 1600,currently i can get close enough to them that zoom is not a problem sometime i even get to close to where a 28-50 zooms is enough
 

Attachments

  • youngmale20sept3.jpg
    youngmale20sept3.jpg
    51.1 KB · Views: 211
I'll not enter this fight again, except to say that what humminbird posted isn't wings frozen, nor is it in flight, nor is it sharp. I'm still flabbergasted he continues to post this as an example of a good photograph.

As for the technicals of what is being asked, as well as the lens:

1) you don't *want* ambient light...you want to underexpose 2 or 3 stops and set your shutter speed to max flash synch (1/250th as mentioned above for 20D). You are not stopping the wings with the shutter speed at all..it is *entirely* flash. I'll explain in point #2 below. Ambient light in this instance just ends up ghosting the wings as you end up getting two exposures. If there is enough ambient light you will get an exposure for the ambient, and another for the flash. This can be a cool effect, but generally it isn't wanted.

2) By setting the flash on manual and setting it to 1/16th or 1/32nd power, and then underexposing the ambient, you are using flash as main light, and thus the speed of the flash is what is used as your shutter speed. The reason for 4 or 5 flashes is that at 1/16th power, the flash only throws light maybe 18-24 inches, so you need multiple to light up the entire bird evenly.

3) Given the small distance the flash will go, you need to set up flashes around the bird...and if you plan to trigger remotely from an on camera flash, you'd be best served to have a better beamer to extend the distance it will throw light. For my hummingbird photography in the past (since I don't have 4 or 5 flashes yet), i've used a Canon 550EX on camera, and rented 3 or 4 other 550EX's from a local camera store. You can generally get them for 10-15$/day. This way I don't need any sort of synchronizer, as 550EX's (and the new 580EX's) can all be remotely triggered, so by setting the flash on camera as master, and the flashes off-camera to slave, and making sure they are all on the same channel, you will trigger all of the flashes when the first one goes off. The need for the better beamer in this case is to make sure the light gets to the flashes. I found this wasnt a problem using a 550EX + BB at 6-8 feet or so at 1/32nd power even.

4) As for the lens...hummingbirds *are* fearless, and generally pay people no heed no matter where they stand. I've had them land on feeders and feed while I was re-filling a feeder. I take almost all of my hummingbird shots with a Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L USM. 200mm is generally enough for most anything, and if I need more, I can always use my 400mm f/5.6L. Point being you don't need a big lens. You are also going to be stopping down to f/16 or below (i've taken many shots at as much as f/25) to render the entire bird sharp. At such close distances, DOF is small, so you need the aperture as small as possible...f/13 generally is the minimum, though f/16, f/18, f/20, f/22, and f/25 are the f/stops I use for hummer photography.

I hope this helps.
 
Last edited:
I'll not enter this fight again, except to say that what humminbird posted isn't wings frozen, nor is it in flight, nor is it sharp. I'm still flabbergasted he continues to post this as an example of a good photograph.

cfagyal , personally I feel that was uncalled for.

now I totally disagree with you as far as ambient light, as well as knocking down 2 stops, i looked at your gallery and you have some very impressive shots, however your background disappeared do to the fact of the downstop with the flash,

not everyone in here is an expert photographer such as yourself, nor do they have the equipment that you probably have, and i don't see the need to be RUDE , as I personally find it totally uncalled for.

now on a lighter note, you are a very lucky indiviual to have seen the variety of hummingbird in which you have posted in your gallery, and I must admit to being quite envious, and would love to see more of them, Brian
 
Ditto to cfagyal

I use 400mm 5.6L or 70-200 2.8L Canons with a Canon EOS 10D. Flash is what does the trick. I have to say, though, that I stopped using my Canon flashes because they only work in E-TTL mode and the preflash sometimes startles the bird. In any event, with a pc-sync cord and four cheap Vivitar 283s or Sunpak 383s (I use a combination of both) you can get as good or better results with no sometimes startling pre-flash. For examples of hummingbirds shot with both off-camera multiple flash setups and on-camera flash, with better beamer, in direct sunlight (using high speed sync, therefore no frozen wings) see my hummingbird gallery at: http://www.dyesscreek.com/miscellaneous_pages/hummingbirds_index.html. I submit that some of the "Hummingbird Portraits" are, actually, good. B :)
 
Last edited:
jazzcaster said:
I use 400mm 5.6L or 70-200 2.8L Canons with a Canon EOS 10D. Flash is what does the trick. I have to say, though, that I stopped using my Canon flashes because they only work in E-TTL mode and the preflash sometimes startles the bird. In any event, with a pc-sync cord and four cheap Vivitar 283s or Sunpak 383s (I use a combination of both) you can get as good or better results with no sometimes startling pre-flash. For examples of hummingbirds shot with both off-camera multiple flash setups and on-camera flash, with better beamer, in direct sunlight (using high speed sync, therefore no frozen wings) see my hummingbird gallery at: http://www.dyesscreek.com/miscellaneous_pages/hummingbirds_index.html. I submit that some of the "Hummingbird Portraits" are, actually, good. B :)
I agree Jazz, you have some superb shots, and are using the exact same lenses I am with a superb camera. I absolutely *love* Hummer_05, Hummer_06, Hummer_10 and Hummer_11. Those images are absolutely awesome. Very impressive work. I also agree that you don't need Canon flashes, and can do quite well with any set of multiple flashes. Ralph Paonessa subscribes to using cheaper sunpaks or vivitars and they do just as good of a job. You just end up needing some sort of flash synch setup. I personally like the E-TTL mode because it just makes my life easier. The results however are basically the same. Both provide the light and stopping power necessary to produce the results. I haven't really found a "startle" factor, at least in Ecuador. But that is just personal experience, and of course every bird is different.

Brian: Yes I agree, the background is blacked out in many of the images I have posted. It is a matter of multiple things. A) Personal preference, at the time I just felt those shots looked better. I have since seen the value of other backgrounds. I just didn't like the busy backgrounds I was getting when I exposed a bit differently. B) I also only had 4 flashes at my disposal, so getting proper light on the background wasn't really possible. However, with more flashes, you are still looking to underexpose in order to eliminate ambient light and make the flashes do the work.
As for my somewhat harsh first sentence in the previous response, I guess it comes from being irritated at the exact same post/picture being the response to any/all posts regarding hummingbird photography that actually subscribes to doing something with equipment beyond a point and shoot camera, without every having actually answered any of the questions any of the previous posters had ever asked about.

Lrd89: I am using digital, but I am generally either at ISO200 or ISO400 (equivalent to ASA200 or ASA400 film. Most often im at ISO400).
 
Chris I do understand but with the digital revolution of photography everyone has a camera now, I guess I just feel more patience is do with newcomers to photography, they may become great with the help of professionals , who knows, with your cam and ISO setting try bumping up the iso even on a bright day to get the higher shutter , no it wont be a full stoppage of wings but will have edge blurr showing that it is moving , btw got new lens, 80-400 Sigma OS work well on the hummers, Brian
 
Warning! This thread is more than 19 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top