Pentax PF-80ED vs. Nikon Fieldscope ED82a (1 Viewer)

Hello all. I’m new at this forum and inexperienced as far as scopes and digiscoping is concerned. Right now I am browsing the internet to see what scope would be best for me. Since the Swaro, Zeiss, Kowa and Leica are above my budget I have narrowed my options down to the Nikon and Pentax. I have read a few threads on similar subjects on this forum but they still do not answer all my questions. (If I have missed a relevant link please let me know. I found a thread with the subject “Pentax 80ED vs. recent Nikon 82” . This thread seems to be a “twin thread” with no info but I can not find the other twin) I’ve also read the reviews on http://www.alula.fi/GB/index.htm which I found helpful. The question I have is: Which would be the better of the 2 if you take my specs into account?

1. I want to use the scope for bird watching (obviously) in my backyard and out in the field.
2. I might have to walk a bit with the scope/tripod but I think that weight would not be too big an issue for me.
3. I do not think I will use the scope too much in rainy / cold conditions outdoors.
4. I really think I want a zoom eye piece with the scope. Although this might have some drawbacks compared with the fixed ones I still think my first eyepiece would be a zoom. I can always buya fixed one later on.
5. I want to try digiscoping.
6. I will have to buy / make an adapter for the scope in order to start digiscoping.
7. I want to use the scope for the occasional gazing at the planets / moon.
8. I think I am best off with an angled type scope although I have no experience with any scope what so ever.
9. The price for the scopes here in the Netherlands are:
Nikon with MCII zoom (20x-60x / 25x-75x) : 1108 Euros
Pentax with zoom ep 20x-60x : 1032 Euros

Question 1: Which would be the best scope for me?
Question 2: Which zoom eyepiece would be best? (Or do I not have any choice in zoom eyepieces?)
Question (s) 3: I have read that I should always test the scope myself since there me be differences between the one and the other of the same brand/type. This is a problem since I can not find a dealer in the Netherlands that has both types of scope available for testing let alone more than one example of the same brand/type. I am considering buying without testing. Would the chance of getting a bad example really be that big and if so what brand would give me the best chance to get a good example? If so how would a newbie like me be able to tell which is best if I would have the opportunity to test?
Question 4: Which adapter would be best for the scope of your preference? (I have a compact Sanyo MZ3 digital camera 2.0 megapixel but will consider buying an other one if digiscoping is a problem)
Question5 : If you have had the opportunity of comparing both scopes with zoom eyepieces please state this in a reply?

I know I am asking a lot but I hope someone can help. Thanks for reading my post. Kind regards. Peter.

Peter,
Make your life simple and look at the Nikon site http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/news/2004/digiscoping_e_04.htm and get everything from them.Neil.

Neil said:

Peter,
Make your life simple and look at the Nikon site http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/news/2004/digiscoping_e_04.htm and get everything from them.Neil.

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Neil

Thanks for your reply. This looks like a nice combination. This could be the best option but it is then sure that I have to buy a new camera since it only fits the Coolpix or an SLR camera. (as far as I understand) I am not convinced (yet ?) that this is the only option. Other comments or answers to any of my questions are more then welcome.

Scope Choice

Neil said:

Peter,
Make your life simple and look at the Nikon site http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/news/2004/digiscoping_e_04.htm and get everything from them.Neil.

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Pewee- Don't appologise for not being able the aford one of the "teutonic trio." Any difference in optical or mechanical quality between them and the scopes made in Japan (Nilon and Pentax) is mostly hyperbole. Get a Pentax or Nikon and when you are in the field, compare it to the high priced three when you have the opportunity. I promise you will be very happy to know that you saved over a thousand bucks.

Peewee said:

Neil

Thanks for your reply. This looks like a nice combination. This could be the best option but it is then sure that I have to buy a new camera since it only fits the Coolpix or an SLR camera. (as far as I understand) I am not convinced (yet ?) that this is the only option. Other comments or answers to any of my questions are more then welcome.

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Peter

I agree with Neil, that if you have the budget then the Nikon solution he has given you the link for is a good solution.

But you are right when you say that this is not the only solution. I have just stated digiscoping and I was the same as yourself, I did not want to go out and by a new camera straight away.

I have a Nikon FSIII and wanted to connect my existing Cannon camera and used a Baader adaptor. As your Sanyo camera is similar layout to my Canon there is no reason way this would not work with the Sanyo. Even though you are looking at a different Nikon scope the eyepieces are the same. I have attached a photo of my scope and camera so you can see how the Baader adaptor works with standard Nikon wide angle eyepiece (please ignore the tripod head as I am now using a Manfrotto 700RC1).

I am sorry that I cannot offer any advice on the Pentax scope as I have never used one. I am very happy with the Nikon and have not yet found anyone who uses one that is dissatisfied with it. But my advice to anyone looking for a scope to go to a field day or a shop and try the scopes for yourself. As you can ask 10 different people for their opinions and get 20 different answers back. I know that you said that you are having difficulty finding a dealer but it might be worth looking out for a field day at a reserve (for example here in the UK the RSPB run them on a regular basis at the larger reserves).

With respect to the question of angled or straight scope, I agree with you that an angled scope is by far the easiest to use for dgiscoping. The main thing to be aware of is that some scopes loose light through the prism used in order angle the scope. I know that the Nikon looses basically nothing due to the type of prism used.

John

USMC said:

Pewee- Don't appologise for not being able the aford one of the "teutonic trio." Any difference in optical or mechanical quality between them and the scopes made in Japan (Nilon and Pentax) is mostly hyperbole. Get a Pentax or Nikon and when you are in the field, compare it to the high priced three when you have the opportunity. I promise you will be very happy to know that you saved over a thousand bucks.

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Hello Peewee,

I completely agree-- though I'd love one of the teutonic trio myself, I ended up with the pf-80ed angled and think its great for the money. I also the luke-warm reviews in some circles relate more to the pentax zoom eyepiece than the scope. I ended up selling the pentax zoom and use an astro zoom eyepiece I already had (the televue 8-24 mm zoom, vixen makes a similar zoom). The pentax body can be had for ~$600-700 u.s. and the eyepiece for less than $200. I've had good success digiscoping by handholding a canon powershot a75 to this eyepiece (can post some pix if you like).

I'd recommend the angled for both birding and astro--its smaller, you can get away with a smaller tripod, and its better for birding with a group.

Have heard that sample variation with the pentax is high, so would be good to be able to return it if you get a lemon.

See also

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=41471 #21


Don't think you can go wrong either way and would definitely suggest trying both out side-by-side.

Cheers,
C

[Don't have any pics from the tv-pentax setup yet, but here's a long-billed dowitcher taken through the tv e.p. with my old tv ranger, hand holding the canon. the optical quality of the pentax body is better than the ranger, especially in terms of color correction, so this is a conservative sample]

you will not go wrong with either of these 2 scopes .but one advantage the pentax has is the ability to use literally dozens of lower price 1.25 eye pieces & not just the high price nikon EP,s for instance i have the televue 8-24mm zoom [vixen & orion the same EP].& The pentax zoom .i think the televue works as well for much less money & weight.i am using superview, s recommended by another bird forum member & find them exellent & only $36 each. anyway good luck .
brian

I have the Pentax 80ED (angled version) and I'm extremely pleased with it. I use it with Pentax XL eyepieces (superb also on my astronomical telescope) and some other astronomical eyepieces (mostly TeleVue). There's a very complimentary review of the Pentax on BetterviewDesired
http://www.betterviewdesired.com/Pentax/index.html

USMC
Thanks for your reply. It is not that I can not afford any of the high-priced "teutonic trio” but it is more that I do not want to pay so much money for so little extra (if any). This is more a principle. I do not want to buy a Mercedes if a Volkswagen will do everything I need. The money saved can be spend on other things such as fixed eyepieces if this turns out to be something I desire. It is just that I am price-conscious (don’t know if this is proper English)

John

Thanks for your reply. Your solution with the baader adapter seems interesting to me. Do you know whether or not this will work with a zoom eyepiece?

I’m afraid I will not be able to visit the UK in order to check some scopes at a reserve but I appreciate the suggestion. Maybe I should check out some birders meeting here in the Netherlands and see if I can try some scopes.

Chris

Your reply is also very helpful. If I buy the Pentax I will certainly consider a non-Pentax zoom eyepiece. Do you know what the magnification is of the suggested televue 8-24 mm zoom in combination with the Pentax scope? Is this sufficient for the smaller birds (finches etc.)?

If I buy the Pentax it will probably be from a dealer in the Netherlands. If will return if it is a lemon but since I am a newbie how will I tell whether or not the one I just bought will be a lemon? (or is this that obvious?) Your attached pic is encouraging to me and makes me feel that digiscoping may just be the thing for me.

Brian

Thanks for you reply. I’ll browse the internet for eyepieces if I will buy the Pentax.

Solent birder
Thanks for your reply.

Hi Peewee......the Baader adaptor will work on pretty much any eyepiece on any scope.


I have a Pentax 65mm scope and use a 8-24mm Vixen "clone" zoom (ie a cheap Chinese copy that is very similar quality wise). On an 80mm scope it would give 20X-60X magnification. There are lots of reasonably priced zooms around (Celestron/Orion/Vixen) and some cheaper brands on e-bay.

Peewee said:

If I buy the Pentax it will probably be from a dealer in the Netherlands. If will return if it is a lemon but since I am a newbie how will I tell whether or not the one I just bought will be a lemon? (or is this that obvious?) Your attached pic is encouraging to me and makes me feel that digiscoping may just be the thing for me.
.

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Oddly enough, the 80ed-a has a slightly longer focal length and the actual magnification is slightly higher, 22-63x I think. This is true of both the pentax and tv ep (both have 8-24mm f.l.). In practice, this does not matter as far as I can tell.

In terms of quality, search these forums for 'star testing' for relatively simple ways of testing the unit you buy.

Finally, I briefly owned the pentax xw 14 and this was a fantastic fix ep (and is waterproof), but it did not work well with my camera (the ocular diameter is as big as the objective on my 8x32 bins! and was too big for hand held digiscoping), and I decided that i prefer a zoom, but you may want to check them out.

Good luck,
C

Chris C said:

Oddly enough, the 80ed-a has a slightly longer focal length and the actual magnification is slightly higher, 22-63x I think. This is true of both the pentax and tv ep (both have 8-24mm f.l.). In practice, this does not matter as far as I can tell.

In terms of quality, search these forums for 'star testing' for relatively simple ways of testing the unit you buy.

Finally, I briefly owned the pentax xw 14 and this was a fantastic fix ep (and is waterproof), but it did not work well with my camera (the ocular diameter is as big as the objective on my 8x32 bins! and was too big for hand held digiscoping), and I decided that i prefer a zoom, but you may want to check them out.

Good luck,
C

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Thanks Chris. The search for "star testing" has given me extra info. I will focus on a zoom e.p. first to come along with the scope. If I will buy a fixed e.p. later on I will search the forum before I buy. I have not yet decided which scope to buy but I will make up my mind one of these days/weeks.

Quite a few Pentax enthusiasts on this thread. I've star tested two Pentax 80mm straight scopes. One that I tested recently had none of the "big three" defects that I frequently see when I star test birding scopes. Those are astigmatism, pinched optics and miscollimation. It is a very good idea to learn to recognize those in a star test if you want to avoid buying a lemon. That was a quick test in a parking lot using the reflection of the sun from car trim. It was too casual to really evaluate the aberrations, except to say that chromatic and spherical are present as they always are in birding scopes. The other speciman I borrowed from a friend star tested poorly with serious pinching that prevented it from producing a really sharp image, something my friend didn't notice because the scope he used before was even worse. I think this kind of sample variation, which exists in all brands, is the biggest reason we see inconsistent reactions to the same scope.

Sample variation aside there are a few things I don't much like about the design of the Pentax scope. The focusing mechanism works by moving one part of the porroprism. There is nothing wrong with that as long as the prisms are large enough, but in the Pentax they are not. As you focus at closer distances the objective is increasingly vignetted by the moving prism until at closest focus the effective aperture is reduced to less than 70mm. This system also requires the porroprism to be present in both the straight and angled versions. The angled version adds another prism between the porro and the eyepiece. How much damage this extra prism does depends on what kind of mirror coating is used on it, which Pentax does not specify, but the extra light loss will probably fall between 5% and 15% compared to the straight version. The Nikon angled scope, in contrast, uses the best possible design for an angled scope. The porro is replaced by a Schmidt prism with light transmission at least as good as the straight version. I haven't compared the two but I would expect the angled Nikon to be brighter at any distance and much brighter at close distances. Even though it is quite expensive the sample of the Pentax zoom eyepiece I tested on my Astro-Physics 92mm scope was not in the same league with the Nikon, Zeiss and Swarovski zooms. Particularly at high magnification it lost sharpness and contrast and showed more lateral chromatic aberration than the others. The limitations of the Nikon zoom are eye relief and field width, but it has exceptionally high light transmission and contrast and is as sharp in the center of the field at any magnification as any fixed focal length eyepiece. I don't suppose any of this would keep someone from being happy with the Pentax, but if the cost is almost the same for you the Nikon, especially the angled version, seems to me to have a superior optical design.

henry link said:

Quite a few Pentax enthusiasts on this thread. I've star tested two Pentax 80mm straight scopes.

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Hello again,

I fully trust Henry's observations here and his observations provide a good balance. My enthusiasm for my pentax comes from its very good performance for the price I paid--I got an unreasonably good deal on mine. I have not yet been able to compare side by side to the big three or the nikon, so can't speak to whether the light loss is perceptible (i had to look three times to see the vinetteing, which is definitely real, but subtle on the 80a).

But if in Peewee's situation, I would seriously consider the nikon for two addtional reasons, since the price of the two scopes in the same range. Size of the pentax is on the bulky side, and the straight through pentax with the pentax zoom is something of a monster. The angled with the tv is not nearly as bad (another reason I didn't like the pentax zoom was its size, its literally as big as a can of soup), but my impression is that the nikon is considerably smaller in bulk than both pentax configurations. The other reason is the nikon warranty, which may be no-fault.

So, again, I urge you to compare side-by-side and check the actual specimen you will purchase if possible.

Cheers,
Chris C

Henry

Thanks for your comment. Although I do not fully understand all of it due to my lack of knowledge I think the bottom line is clear. The Nikon seems to have a better design. I don’t think the eye relief is a big problem since I do not wear glasses. I understand that it could be a problem for those that do wear glasses. As far as field width is concerned I have no idea if this is going to be a problem for me. I’m just wondering if a 20-60x zoom e.p. (25-75x in this scope) will be a bit overdone since the end of my backyard is only about 10 yards/meters away from where my scope will be. Is a 25x magnification not to much in this situation? (biggest bird will be pigeons). Of course I will also use the scope in the field where I think the 25-75x will be OK.

Reading other threads and articles on the internet gave me the impression that sample variations was more a problem with Pentax then with Nikon. Since I will, most likely, not be able to try before I buy, I think my chances with Nikon are better then with Pentax. The difference in price is only 80 euro’s .

Chris

Thanks for your comment. You are right about the size of the scopes. Although I have no experience with scopes I can imagine that the smaller one will be easier to carry/transport. I also think that the total weight if the Nikon scope plus zoom e.p. is smaller then the Pentax with zoom e.p.

You urge me to compare side by side. I have no doubt that this is the best way to tell which will best but at this moment I do not know of any shop that sells them both and has them set up for trial. I will continue my search but since Nikon does not officially import the ED82a in the Netherlands I know my chances are slim of ever comparing them. I just might take a chance and buy one from a shop where I can not try before I buy. Of course I will ask in advance if I can return the scope (and get my money back) if it turns out to be a lemon. I will browse the internet some more for shops in the Netherlands where I can compare but I as said before I don’t know if I will find one. But then again if I don’t try I am sure I will not find. And so I will be spending more time behind the computer then my girlfriend thinks is good for me. (RSI). Only for this reason she hopes I will make up my mind soon.

Thanks

Peter

After reading Henry,s post i decided to do a test of my own ,i have the pentax pf 65 ed angled & the nikon fieldscope 60 ed angled.i also have the pf 80 ed angled & a fieldscope non ed straight .[ im a bit of an optics nut]i took both of the smaller scopes nikon ed & pentax ed to check out the brightness & sharpness .after many moves from one to the other i have to call it a dead heat [ by the way i used TV 8-24mm in the pentax, & nikons own zoom in the nikon]i really couldnt see any difference.its a tie . the 80 pf ed is better than both of them for obvious reasons .i also tried my tak fs 60 alongside the other 2 & i think it shaded them both.wish it was weather proof.Im sorry i cant give opinion on the bigger nikon. i hav,nt got one of those . i have too many already .
brian

USMC said:

Any difference in optical or mechanical quality between them and the scopes made in Japan (Nilon and Pentax) is mostly hyperbole.

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I sort of agree with this. As Henry says the only problem with the Nikon zoom is not the optics but the fov and eye relief and I'd add DOF. The image is superb. The Leica (and Swaro) zoom has a much more easy to use feel about it. If you read the Alula review of the Nikon the zooms faults are usability not optical. Not a problem with the fixed eye pieces I believe.

There are some good deals on ED82's at the moment in the UK which would make it tempting if I was in the market

pduxon said:

I sort of agree with this. As Henry says the only problem with the Nikon zoom is not the optics but the fov and eye relief and I'd add DOF. The image is superb. The Leica (and Swaro) zoom has a much more easy to use feel about it. If you read the Alula review of the Nikon the zooms faults are usability not optical. Not a problem with the fixed eye pieces I believe.

There are some good deals on ED82's at the moment in the UK which would make it tempting if I was in the market

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FYI--there is an adapter for the zeiss zoom that will allow it to be used with the pentax (or any other astro scope). The adapter is about $50 US and I suspect that the pentax body + the zeiss zoom would be the best overall bang for the buck (i've been tempted to shell out for the zoom, but just can't justify it since I've already got a very good zoom).

Cheers,
Chris C

Brian,

Interesting. If it's a dead heat as to brightness between the 60mm Nikon and the 65mm Pentax then the light transmission of the Nikon must be around 15-20% higher to compensate for the difference in aperture.

Chris,

The Zeiss/Pentax combination probably would be good if it can be brought to focus. The Zeiss 1.25" adapter adds about 20mm to the front of the Zeiss zoom eyepiece (not including the 1.25" barrel). I just compared the Zeiss zoom with adapter to a Pentax 14mm XW and found the Zeiss needed about 30mm of infocus.

henry link said:

Chris,

The Zeiss/Pentax combination probably would be good if it can be brought to focus. The Zeiss 1.25" adapter adds about 20mm to the front of the Zeiss zoom eyepiece (not including the 1.25" barrel). I just compared the Zeiss zoom with adapter to a Pentax 14mm XW and found the Zeiss needed about 30mm of infocus.

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And I thought I was so clever. 20 mm is a good bit--anyone out there tried this combo?