Beginner seeking help (1 Viewer)

Noah's dove · May 2, 2006

Just joined last night and would appreciate advice on what I know is a thread that probably appears quite often, help with choosing 8/10x25 on a budget of £100.I currently have a Opticron Discovery 8x42, which I find very good, and last week I bought Bushnell 8x30 Off Trail, cant notice any difference to the Opticron, (remember I am a beginner),however they are not pocket sized so they will do for the car. If I had not found the site I would have bought 8x25 Nikon Sportstar currently available for £56 on the web inc p&p, have read the thread on the Sportstar and my only concern is water ingress as we catch the odd passing shower in these parts, so is there anything else that I should look at ?. 8 or 10x ???
ps, are Leica really worth the money,met a guy last week from London on holiday in the Island and he let me look through 8x32's and I have to say I did not see anything that screamed mega bucks optic performance(remember I am a beginner).

FrankD · May 2, 2006

I would have bought 8x25 Nikon Sportstar currently available for £56 on the web inc p&p, have read the thread on the Sportstar and my only concern is water ingress as we catch the odd passing shower in these parts, so is there anything else that I should look at ?. 8 or 10x ???

Don't worry about waterproofing issues with the Sportstar. I have had mine for a fair amount of time now and have not run into any problems whatsoever. Nikon also just came out with the newest version of the Sportstar and another compact bin as well. The name escapes me right now and I do not have the catalog in front of me.

Tero · May 2, 2006

...are Leica really worth the money,met a guy last week from London on holiday in the Island and he let me look through 8x32's and I have to say I did not see anything that screamed mega bucks optic performance(remember I am a beginner).

Well, did he find more birds than you? You work with what you have.

There are plenty of compacts out there, too many. About half are junk, and they are pretty obvious. Others have good optics but something just isn't right for you. Try all you can. The price you mention should get you a decent model, even water proof if you insist.

I am going to look at some Audubons today, I hope. Nikons I have seen, Bushnells you need to compare carefully as the range is lousy to pretty good.

Sancho · May 2, 2006

Noah's dove said:
Just joined last night and would appreciate advice on what I know is a thread that probably appears quite often, help with choosing 8/10x25 on a budget of £100.I currently have a Opticron Discovery 8x42, which I find very good, and last week I bought Bushnell 8x30 Off Trail, cant notice any difference to the Opticron, (remember I am a beginner),however they are not pocket sized so they will do for the car. If I had not found the site I would have bought 8x25 Nikon Sportstar currently available for £56 on the web inc p&p, have read the thread on the Sportstar and my only concern is water ingress as we catch the odd passing shower in these parts, so is there anything else that I should look at ?. 8 or 10x ???
ps, are Leica really worth the money,met a guy last week from London on holiday in the Island and he let me look through 8x32's and I have to say I did not see anything that screamed mega bucks optic performance(remember I am a beginner).

In the price range you mention there are two pocket bins that are simply unbeatable, and arguably as good optically as anything that the top-end manufacturers have on offer. These are the Opticron Taiga, and the Nikon Travelites. Check them out in reviews, here on Birdforum and anywhere else, see, for example, the review in the last issue of 'Alula' that compared Leica, Zeiss, Swarovski and Opticron Taiga compacts and actually maintained that the Taiga performed better than the Zeiss or Swaro. Remember that they cost quarter of the price. Just a little less compact, and slightly less field of view. I've tried both the Taigas and the Travelites, the only reason I didn't get them is that for compacts I need roof-prisms (they have to be really pocketable). Best of Luck, let us know how you get on.

Noah's dove · May 2, 2006

Sancho said:
In the price range you mention there are two pocket bins that are simply unbeatable, and arguably as good optically as anything that the top-end manufacturers have on offer. These are the Opticron Taiga, and the Nikon Travelites. Check them out in reviews, here on Birdforum and anywhere else, see, for example, the review in the last issue of 'Alula' that compared Leica, Zeiss, Swarovski and Opticron Taiga compacts and actually maintained that the Taiga performed better than the Zeiss or Swaro. Remember that they cost quarter of the price. Just a little less compact, and slightly less field of view. I've tried both the Taigas and the Travelites, the only reason I didn't get them is that for compacts I need roof-prisms (they have to be really pocketable). Best of Luck, let us know how you get on.

Sure is interesting to read about Bushnell being poor to very good,W.E told me about the Opticron and I am not surprised about the Travelites,reckon anything with the Nikon name has to be good,certainly the rule of thumb in photography,but like you, my compacts have to be pocket sized,having said all that there is a pair of 9x25's on the old auction site with an hour to go and they are at £36, NO,NO, thats buying for the sake of getting a bargain rather than what I want.
For £100 budget is there anything else worth looking at apart from Sportstars and whats best for general use 8x or 10x,?

Noah's dove · May 2, 2006

I cannot for the life of me see any difference between the Opticrons and Bushnell,both bright,sharp, the Off Trail came from W.E. on special,£45 from£109.95.I agree with the comment about the rubbish that is out there,thats why sites like this are invaluable for beginners to tap into the experience available through all you guys.

Noah's dove · May 2, 2006

Sancho said:
In the price range you mention there are two pocket bins that are simply unbeatable, and arguably as good optically as anything that the top-end manufacturers have on offer. These are the Opticron Taiga, and the Nikon Travelites. Check them out in reviews, here on Birdforum and anywhere else, see, for example, the review in the last issue of 'Alula' that compared Leica, Zeiss, Swarovski and Opticron Taiga compacts and actually maintained that the Taiga performed better than the Zeiss or Swaro. Remember that they cost quarter of the price. Just a little less compact, and slightly less field of view. I've tried both the Taigas and the Travelites, the only reason I didn't get them is that for compacts I need roof-prisms (they have to be really pocketable). Best of Luck, let us know how you get on.

Ahem,yes,well ,ehm, muggins went and bought the 9x25 Travelites on the old auction site for £56, they are new,looked at size of them compared to Sportstar and they are 15mm longer, 1mm wider and 45 grms lighter,so dont see a huge difference in size,will keep you posted,thanks for your help,sorry to be so scatty,takes all kinds to make a world!!!

Sancho · May 2, 2006

Noah's dove said:
Ahem,yes,well ,ehm, muggins went and bought the 9x25 Travelites on the old auction site for £56, they are new,looked at size of them compared to Sportstar and they are 15mm longer, 1mm wider and 45 grms lighter,so dont see a huge difference in size,will keep you posted,thanks for your help,sorry to be so scatty,takes all kinds to make a world!!!

I'm going to confess to having possibly made a mistake... I recommended the Opticron Taiga, which I stand by, and also the Nikon Travelites, but now that I think of it, I can't remember if the ones I tested were Nikon Travelites or Nikon Sporters. I've looked at the Nikon site and still can't decide which ones I thought were the business. I really hope I haven't misled you, let me know what you think of the Travelites! Sorry.... I think.....

lucznik · May 2, 2006

O.K. this is probably too late as you seem to have made a purchase off "the old auction site" but,

Some of the best options in compact porro prism binoculars are the 8 or 10x26 mm Bushnell Legends. I have had the 10x version for a few years and it is really quite a good little binocular. It's not easily carried in a pants pocket but, slips nicely inside a jacket. These can be had for under $100 US.

If you want something more compact then you go for roofs of which there are a couple of good, inexpensive choices. First the Pentax DCF MC II (in either 8 or 10x25) These are very easy to slip into even a front pants pocket and their optics are very good (they are even phase correction coated.) They cost about $130 US. Secondly, there is the 9x25 Bushnell Legend for around $160 US. I don't have a lot of experience with this specific model but the Legend line is well respected and these are waterproof, fogproof, phase-correction coated, etc. The roof prism design will make them more compact then their porro prism sisters.

The Nikon Sportstars you mentioned early on are reportedly pretty good but, their eye relief is so small as to make them unuseable to me. If you also wear eyeglasses, you will likely have the same problem.

As to whether the Leicas are better, the short answer is yes. How much better? That depends on how picky you are about what you see. They will be brighter, clearer, more rugged, lighter, and smaller than these others. They will also have better resolution, greater contrast, and exhibit sharpness closer to the very edges of the field of view. They also will exhibit fewer optical abberations (chromatic abberation, pincushion distortion, barrel distortion, etc.) than these lower priced roof prism specimens. However you may or may not be able to actually see these distortions, especially as a "beginner." (Optically the porro prism models may actually outperform the top-end roofs by a tiny margin but, they are significantly larger and heavier.) Are these high end minis worth a price tag that is close to 5X the cost of some of these other models? Only you can decide.

I counseled my in-laws to buy an inexpensive roof prism compact model when they went on a trip to Hawaii because I knew they were cheap and wouldn't be willing to buy anything better. I also knew that they wouldn't be willing to carry around anything larger. They were thrilled and the Leica wouldn't have enhanced their experience at all. In fact everytime they touched it they would have felt pains of guilt over its pricetag. (By the way, this binocular has sat on a shelf untouched since their return.)

Personally, I can't stand their little binocular. It is dim, dull, hard to use, can't resolve detail worth a d#@&, and is otherwise just miserable. I would like the Leica but, can't afford it so, I've always tried to find something in a "happy medium," hence the various Pentax, Bushnell, etc. models. What I think I really want is the Nikon LXL, which is supposed to be the Leica's equal only a bit less expensive.

I just seem to be getting more and more picky as I get older and the "happy medium" just doesn't seem so happy anymore.

Noah's dove · May 3, 2006

lucznik said:
O.K. this is probably too late as you seem to have made a purchase off "the old auction site" but,

Some of the best options in compact porro prism binoculars are the 8 or 10x26 mm Bushnell Legends. I have had the 10x version for a few years and it is really quite a good little binocular. It's not easily carried in a pants pocket but, slips nicely inside a jacket. These can be had for under $100 US.

If you want something more compact then you go for roofs of which there are a couple of good, inexpensive choices. First the Pentax DCF MC II (in either 8 or 10x25) These are very easy to slip into even a front pants pocket and their optics are very good (they are even phase correction coated.) They cost about $130 US. Secondly, there is the 9x25 Bushnell Legend for around $160 US. I don't have a lot of experience with this specific model but the Legend line is well respected and these are waterproof, fogproof, phase-correction coated, etc. The roof prism design will make them more compact then their porro prism sisters.

The Nikon Sportstars you mentioned early on are reportedly pretty good but, their eye relief is so small as to make them unuseable to me. If you also wear eyeglasses, you will likely have the same problem.

As to whether the Leicas are better, the short answer is yes. How much better? That depends on how picky you are about what you see. They will be brighter, clearer, more rugged, lighter, and smaller than these others. They will also have better resolution, greater contrast, and exhibit sharpness closer to the very edges of the field of view. They also will exhibit fewer optical abberations (chromatic abberation, pincushion distortion, barrel distortion, etc.) than these lower priced roof prism specimens. However you may or may not be able to actually see these distortions, especially as a "beginner." (Optically the porro prism models may actually outperform the top-end roofs by a tiny margin but, they are significantly larger and heavier.) Are these high end minis worth a price tag that is close to 5X the cost of some of these other models? Only you can decide.

I counseled my in-laws to buy an inexpensive roof prism compact model when they went on a trip to Hawaii because I knew they were cheap and wouldn't be willing to buy anything better. I also knew that they wouldn't be willing to carry around anything larger. They were thrilled and the Leica wouldn't have enhanced their experience at all. In fact everytime they touched it they would have felt pains of guilt over its pricetag. (By the way, this binocular has sat on a shelf untouched since their return.)

Personally, I can't stand their little binocular. It is dim, dull, hard to use, can't resolve detail worth a d#@&, and is otherwise just miserable. I would like the Leica but, can't afford it so, I've always tried to find something in a "happy medium," hence the various Pentax, Bushnell, etc. models. What I think I really want is the Nikon LXL, which is supposed to be the Leica's equal only a bit less expensive.

I just seem to be getting more and more picky as I get older and the "happy medium" just doesn't seem so happy anymore.

Funny cos I looked at Bushnell Legend on the "old auction site" going for £49.95,but I was put of by Tero's post,(dont go feeling bad now Tero if you read this,if we give opinions on here stands to reason that folk are going to be influenced by what is said,after all that's what this is all about) but I would be interested in what you think of Tero's comment about Bushnell overall,have you experieced them to range from "lousy to pretty good"?

As for the Leica's I am sure you get what you pay for but it seems to me that the gap between optical perfomance and price can be very big and very small at the same time,if you follow my drift.

Tero · May 3, 2006

They may not sell the worst Bushnells over there, we get lots in our Wal Marts and K Marts. People buy them go look at car races. Any Bushnell over 100 dollars here is generally pretty useable. Even a few under that price.

I can recommend the Travelites. Very bright, porros. I almost bought the 9x. See my post under
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=582255#post582255

lucznik · May 3, 2006

Noah's dove said:
Funny cos I looked at Bushnell Legend on the "old auction site" going for £49.95,but I was put of by Tero's post,(dont go feeling bad now Tero if you read this,if we give opinions on here stands to reason that folk are going to be influenced by what is said,after all that's what this is all about) but I would be interested in what you think of Tero's comment about Bushnell overall,have you experieced them to range from "lousy to pretty good"?

As for the Leica's I am sure you get what you pay for but it seems to me that the gap between optical perfomance and price can be very big and very small at the same time,if you follow my drift.

I do indeed follow your drift - and I agree with you completely.

Actually Tero's comments were spot on. Bushnell does indeed manufacture glass ranging from the truly abysmal to the absolutely superb. In fact the little compact my in-laws bought is a Bushnell (from their PowerView line.)

The Legend series is where the Bushnell line crosses the line from forgettable to completely worthy. They have good glass, housed in quality "frames," and will serve the user very well for many seasons. They compare favorably to the Nikon Monarchs which seem to be a favorite amongst those shoppers looking for good optics bargains. I do not believe Tero intended for you to include this line of optics in the category of Bushnell's "lousy" offerings.

Bushnell's offerings do get much better than the Legends to be sure. The Discoverer series is perhaps the best value in full size binoculars, period. And the Elite line compares very favorably with the very best of the "Premium" binocular lines.

ceasar · May 3, 2006

For years I did what you guys are doing. I bought and used inexpensive mini binoculars.
Some were good, some were ok and some were horrible. I finally splurged and bought a Leica 8 x 20 trinovid and am I glad I did! I was able to see how much better they were than my others. There is no comparison. They are in a different league completely!

Live and learn!
Bob

FrankD · May 3, 2006

What I think I really want is the Nikon LXL, which is supposed to be the Leica's equal only a bit less expensive.

They are Lucznik, they are. [

] If I hadn't been in poor financial straits at the time I most assuredly would have kept them. Funny though, I do not feel very handicapped with the Sportstars. I look forward to trying the newer Sportstar IVs as they have better eye relief. Haven't seen them on the shelves yet though.

Noah's dove · May 3, 2006

ceasar said:
For years I did what you guys are doing. I bought and used inexpensive mini binoculars.
Some were good, some were ok and some were horrible. I finally splurged and bought a Leica 8 x 20 trinovid and am I glad I did! I was able to see how much better they were than my others. There is no comparison. They are in a different league completely!

Live and learn!
Bob

Remember I am a beginner,I would not have given 8x20's a second look based purely on my basic understanding of "the larger the large figure the brighter the image,8x42 Opticron and 8x30 Bushnell are bright,but I have to confess that I imagined 8x20's would be dim, having read your post obviously not, I can only say that this bino forum gets more fascinating as we go on,much to learn.Living on an island we do not have a great choice of glasses to compare but once I get to a decent store I am looking forward to looking at all the Leica and high end Nikon,Swavorski,Bushnell,etc.

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