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Scope Decision Nikon/Kowa (1 Viewer)

greg g

Well-known member
1. I have been looking at two spotting scopes that are approx. the same money.
2. Nikon Fieldscope 111 60 ED straight w/ 20x60 eyepiece and 40x wide.
3. Kowa TSN 663 ED angled w/ 20x60 eyepiece and 40x wide.
4. The scope will mainly be used for birding/wildlife and some digiphoto.
5. I've been looking thru both of them for weeks and would like some feed-back.
6. I now have the opportunity to have them for the weekend on loan and I’m still working out what fits.
7. The one item I like with the Nikon is the focus collar/ it is user friendly, the viewing image doesn't "jiggle" as easily as when using the knob at the top with the Kowa for focusing.
8. The one item I like with the Kowa is the eyepiece collar fits my eye nicely.
9. It has been difficult to tell which of these two has better A) clarity B)sharpness C)brightness D) easier to use with a Nikon D80 camera while viewing
10. The straight is easier to pickup wildlife
11. The angled I can watch longer without getting uncomfortable.
12. Using the angled I found sometimes I missed the bird when trying to line it up.
13. I have not been able to find a review or article that compares these two models with the eyepieces 20x60 zoom and a 40x wide with any measured results.
.
 
Hi Greg,

Why not expand your horizons first. I tried both of these but preferred the Zeiss 65, (the Leica APO 62 was also very good).
The Zeiss also only needs the 15-45x zoom lens, which has a lovely wide FOV. This means its easier to pick up whatever you are aiming at, which seems to be one of your concerns.
 
Lol! Being a Kowa fan and regretting ever selling my 823 for Swaro - I'd have to say Kowa! The Nikon is a fine scope butreally the Kowa surpasses even the Swaro let alone the Nikon.

Once you use the angled version on a regular basis (took me 5 minutes) then it becomes instinct to pick up a bird. The advantage for me at 6'2" is that angled can be used at a lower tripod height for stability, though I have to say that straight is more suitable for hide use (in a busy hide) if that's what you mainly do. There's not mny tripods that reach 6' and even fewer that are stable at that height.


If you have the 20-60x Kowa zoom, then I really don't see the point of having the 40x fixed as the zoom is a first rate eyepiece - I can't speak for the Nikon.

If for digiscoping use then really 20x is the maximum you'll ever need.
 
IanF said:
Lol! Being a Kowa fan and regretting ever selling my 823 for Swaro - I'd have to say Kowa! The Nikon is a fine scope butreally the Kowa surpasses even the Swaro let alone the Nikon.

Once you use the angled version on a regular basis (took me 5 minutes) then it becomes instinct to pick up a bird. The advantage for me at 6'2" is that angled can be used at a lower tripod height for stability, though I have to say that straight is more suitable for hide use (in a busy hide) if that's what you mainly do. There's not mny tripods that reach 6' and even fewer that are stable at that height.


If you have the 20-60x Kowa zoom, then I really don't see the point of having the 40x fixed as the zoom is a first rate eyepiece - I can't speak for the Nikon.

If for digiscoping use then really 20x is the maximum you'll ever need.

puzzled Ian

we're talking about 60mm scopes and everything I've seen suggests the Kowa is not in the same class as the Nikon.

bear in mind that the Kowa zoom for the 60mm series is different to the 80mm series (or so I believe)

If we were talking 80mm scopes then fair enough......

I stand to be corrected.
 
Hard choice - I like angled scopes, but if I had a Nikon camera, I'd probably go for a Nikon scope! And my - isn't it such a well-made scope? It looks and feels the beauty it truly is. Optics sharp to the edge, too with easily the most natural view currently available from any manufacturer in my view. Nikon's focusing is a dream - such speed once you've got used to it!
 
pduxon said:
puzzled Ian

we're talking about 60mm scopes and everything I've seen suggests the Kowa is not in the same class as the Nikon.

bear in mind that the Kowa zoom for the 60mm series is different to the 80mm series (or so I believe)

If we were talking 80mm scopes then fair enough......

I stand to be corrected.
I started off with the Kowa 611 with 20-60x and 32x TSN which I loved to bits for it's view though for digiscoping I wish it had been the 613.

Here we're talking about the 663 - a 66mm fluorite model which whilst I have no experience of it, I'd always rate higher than a 60mm Nikon for the greater light gathering and as far as I'm concerned unsurpassed fluorite glass.

Fair is fair and I have to say that Nikon scopes are perhaps not as highly rated as they should be - but as a personal choice I'd opt for Kowa.
 
ok make it like this, kowa, nikon, swaro, leica and zeiss scopes are the best for birding and digiscoping, so choose either one of them and you will not regret it because buyers are paying for the scope and we are giving our opinions based on our experienced with the scopes ...

im using nikon for birding at the same time showing birders around the world (especially birders from UK) birds that lives and migrates to borneo island. all of them were satisfied.

then when i go birding with friends, we do not compared scope or bino, instead we try our best to get new species or looking for the rare one to makes ourselves happy in the end of the day hehehe :eek:

so regardless brand of the scopes, those makers i mentioned above does manufactured nice and good scopes for us, so why bother comparing ?
 
7. The one item I like with the Nikon is the focus collar/ it is user friendly, the viewing image doesn't "jiggle" as easily as when using the knob at the top with the Kowa for focusing.
Are the scopes mounted properly? Sometimes the mounting differs between scopes. Some may require a different type of head on the tripod to be steady.
 
Wow, this forum is great. It is really helpful, confusing and I can tell that it will cost me more money. Today I've changed my mind/direction and pushed my budget up some to consider a Nikon 82ED or Nikon 60ED or a Zeiss 65. What I realize from trying the different scopes and reading the forum is this is a very hard decision but fun one too. Two things I like about the Zeiss is the "fine" tuning focus dial and the FOV with the zoom. Everything else I like with the Nikon. If I consider cost equal on all three of these scopes I'm still not sure. I'm still not quite use to the angled scope but I can tell there are advantages so I'm leaning that way. From reading the forum it appears that my D80 Nikon camera is not the camera to use with these scopes. From what I’ve read so far the birders mention disappointment and frustration trying to use a SLR camera with the scopes. It seems to be my understanding from reading the forum the recommendations appear to be it would be easier/better to purchase a "coolpix" or similar and not fight the disappointment trying to make the SLR work? Thanks for all of your comments. It just helps me make a more informed decision. The journey to buy my first scope is a lot of fun and very interesting! I want to mention that I was able to watch an eagle take a bath in a lake while trying out two scopes (the N-60ED and K-66ED with a 20-60 zoom). Watching him fluff his feathers and checking out his eye. That is one reason that I'm thinking of the 82. If an opportunity like that happens again I want to really "look him in the eye". Again any advice, personal opinion or experience on these scopes as just a scope or with a camera is greatly appreciated!
 
IanF said:
I started off with the Kowa 611 with 20-60x and 32x TSN which I loved to bits for it's view though for digiscoping I wish it had been the 613.

Here we're talking about the 663 - a 66mm fluorite model which whilst I have no experience of it, I'd always rate higher than a 60mm Nikon for the greater light gathering and as far as I'm concerned unsurpassed fluorite glass.

Fair is fair and I have to say that Nikon scopes are perhaps not as highly rated as they should be - but as a personal choice I'd opt for Kowa.

each to his own. I own a 62mm Leica but I'd never swap it for a 66mm Kowa.... and I'd buy the Nikon ED over the Kowa 663. as I say each to his own.

Greg if you go here http://www.alula.fi/GB/index.htm and select optics you'll find some reviews.

The Nikon EDIII in 3/2002 and Kowa 663 4/2001

The ED82 2/2004
 
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pduxon said:
bear in mind that the Kowa zoom for the 60mm series is different to the 80mm series (or so I believe)

If we were talking 80mm scopes then fair enough......

Pete is right. See Kimmo's review in Alula 4/2001 http://www.alula.fi/gb/test_kowa.html

"Kowa's zooms I cannot bring myself to recommend: their viewing comfort and field of view are severely compromised and the amount of additional resolving distance they bring is not very significant. This brings me to the most significant shortcoming of Kowa's new scopes: since Kowa already has excellent wideangles and a top-quality zoom for the 820 series, why could they not design the 660 series to use these same eyepieces? This is all the more regrettable in view of the manufacturer's/importer's decision to raise the prices of the 660 series scope bodies to an entirely different level from the 610 series prices."

Ilkka


EDIT: Maybe I should try to read some other posts more carefully before posting messages like this :hi:
 
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I believe the newer zoom Kowa TSE-Z9B is the zoom eyepiece to go for which has a much better better reputation than the old one (OK except perhaps at 20x for digiscoping...) :
http://www.kowascope.com/frontend/proddetail.asp?pn=TSE-Z9B%20(20-60x%20Zoom)&co=10000335
FWIW at OpticsPlanet there's an advice forum there where a member of staff is evidently a huge fan of the 663 with this zoom eyepiece.
http://www.opticsplanet.com/msgboard/about2159.html&highlight=kowa
 
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As for the review quoted here by Pete and Illka, I stand by what I wrote then, but it is important to note that the test was not done with the most current zoom eyepiece which was at the time not available. The new zoom I have not tested, so I cannot comment on it.

Kimmo
 
I owned the new kowa zoom (TSE-Z9B), until very recently and it was an excellent eyepiece. Only sold it when I upgraded to Swarovski in August, but otherwise I would have kept it for sure. It performed very well, right up to 60X, and was IMO not that much worse than the Swaro 80HD with zoom (obviously there was a difference, but when you consider the ridiculous price difference between the older Kowa and newer Swaro, it makes you think!).

I can't comment on the 663, or even the smaller 603, as I used the zoom on a TSN-3, which no doubt helped its performance because of the larger objective lens.

Seems to me that Kowa lost its reputation for smaller scopes when they stopped making the excellent 613/614, and I haven't read any proper reviews of their recent replacements so far.

I don't think some dealers help with this reputation-recently I was looking for a smaller scope for portability, and would have seriously considered another Kowa, but the dealer rubished the Kowas in favour of other more 'popular brands.' Went for a Nikon ed50 instead, which really is excellent. The only problem with it is, considering the relative cheapness of the body, two or three eyepieces would increase the overall cost to an unjustifiable level, at least for me.

I also would be interested in user's actual experiences with the new smaller Kowas, and might even consider changing the little Nikon one day for a 603 if they are any good. Not that there's anything wrong with the Nikon, just that I personally like the flexibility of 2 or 3 different EP's. The slightly larger objective of the 603 might be a further advantage when using higher powers for the occasional distant id or digiscoping, as I do find the ed50 a bit limited at powers over 30X.

The small Kowas are also extremely good value for money compared with many popular makes these days, something that is often taken to be a sign of poorer quality. But don't discount them on other people's say-so. There still seem to be plenty of happy Kowa owners out there-surely they can't all be wrong?
 
I've looked through a 603 with 30wa and it was very good for the money. I'd expect it to outperform ED50 there are limitations to a 50mm scope obviously.

my comment was that in my opinion the Nikon EDIII is a better scope than the kowa 663.

Ultimately though you try them and see what you think. it would be a dull world if we all think the same!

btw is the new zoom the same as that used on the 82mm series?

another thing why is there a 66 series and a 60 series?
 
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Thanks for that Pete. I have no difficulty believing that the Nikon EDIII does out-perform the Kowa, Nikon are excellent scopes, but is it really by that big a margin? especially when you consider the price of the 663 (the last time I looked on Warehouseexpress I'm sure it was even cheaper than the smaller 603-work that one out!!).

The new kowa zoom is not the same as that for the 82 mm scopes, though it looks very similar on the outside. An adapter can be bought that enables it to be used on the 82 series, but this for me is where I agree that Kowa have slipped up. Almost all other top makes have EP's that work on both their 60 and 80mm variants, but for some unknown reason not Kowa! Maybe the situation will be further confused when the new 77 and 88mm scopes become available?

Seems like a real missed opportunity for Kowa, as I think many birders would like to stay with the same eyepieces (for financial reasons) if they were in the market for two different sized scopes, as I was. This is where Nikon got it right IMO.
 
SteveClifton said:
Thanks for that Pete. I have no difficulty believing that the Nikon EDIII does out-perform the Kowa, Nikon are excellent scopes, but is it really by that big a margin? especially when you consider the price of the 663 (the last time I looked on Warehouseexpress I'm sure it was even cheaper than the smaller 603-work that one out!!).

The new kowa zoom is not the same as that for the 82 mm scopes, though it looks very similar on the outside. An adapter can be bought that enables it to be used on the 82 series, but this for me is where I agree that Kowa have slipped up. Almost all other top makes have EP's that work on both their 60 and 80mm variants, but for some unknown reason not Kowa! Maybe the situation will be further confused when the new 77 and 88mm scopes become available?

Seems like a real missed opportunity for Kowa, as I think many birders would like to stay with the same eyepieces (for financial reasons) if they were in the market for two different sized scopes, as I was. This is where Nikon got it right IMO.

oh if you throw the difference in price in... I was talking absolutes.

but in the states I THINK they are the same price. eagle optics quotes $799 for a straight EDIII and $899 for an angled whereas the Kowa 663 is $879 the 664 is $829

think you are right about the eyepieces. if your main scope is say an ED82 then a ED50 is very attractive as you share eyepieces.
 
pduxon said:
...think you are right about the eyepieces. if your main scope is say an ED82 then a ED50 is very attractive as you share eyepieces.

Yes, the only reason I bought the ED50 as well. As I already have a EDIII (plus my standard Leica 77APO). Hope to have a scope along on hikes where I would otherwise only carry binoculars. That Cullmann shoulder tripod will then have to prove its worth.
 
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Dux/Swiss excellent point about the ability to use the same eyepieces from one scope to another with Nikon. Also Tero you were right about the mount from the scope to the tripod not being set correctly, I could have swore I'd done it right the first time. Ian, today I'm looking thru two scopes the Kowa 66ED and the Nikon 60 non-ED. It is amazing how superior the Kowa 66ED is, the light off the water ripples, feather color, no comparison. Common sense I guess but this just confirms size and glass quality. I thought I had it narrowed down to the Nikon 60ED or 82 ED, then the darn Zeiss 65 slips into consideration, then since I'm looking at 82ED why don't I consider the Zeiss 85? Start looking into the ability to use a camera and the forum says the Kowa eyepieces are easier to use than either the Nikon or Zeiss. Wow, the amount of information, combinations and considerations, I can't with a clear conscience go out and buy one right away but I want to. Thanks for the reference to web reviews and your opinions. It really helps me understand the tools for birding and appreciate all the experince and work that you have done on making your own decisions. Life is good!
 
horukuru said:
ok make it like this, kowa, nikon, swaro, leica and zeiss scopes are the best for birding and digiscoping, so choose either one of them and you will not regret it because buyers are paying for the scope and we are giving our opinions based on our experienced with the scopes ...

im using nikon for birding at the same time showing birders around the world (especially birders from UK) birds that lives and migrates to borneo island. all of them were satisfied.

Horukuru
On purchasing one fixed eyepiece for either the Nikon ED82 or ED111 scope for mainly birding with a little photo thrown in, would you get a 20x/30x/38x wide MC or a 16x/24x/30x wide DS?
 
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