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Gull ID - Stubber's Green, UK (1 Viewer)

This is a picture I have found via Google of what are labelled as 2nd and 3rd winter Herring Gulls. They seem quite different to the bird in my photo.

Does anyone else have an opinion?
 

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I assume you are leaning towards Caspian gull here. I can see how one would lean towards caspian but in my opinion the bill is too stubby and herring gull like for it to be a caspian. The wings are not attenuated enough, once again they seem to fit herring gull. Also, the dark eye is not a reliable feauture to go by and some herring gulls can show this feautue. Anyone please feel free to correct me here.
 
This is a picture I have found via Google of what are labelled as 2nd and 3rd winter Herring Gulls. They seem quite different to the bird in my photo.

Does anyone else have an opinion?

Check the location... They might not even be the same species ;)
 
I assume you are leaning towards Caspian gull here. I can see how one would lean towards caspian but in my opinion the bill is too stubby and herring gull like for it to be a caspian. The wings are not attenuated enough, once again they seem to fit herring gull. Also, the dark eye is not a reliable feauture to go by and some herring gulls can show this feautue. Anyone please feel free to correct me here.
Yes, I can see what you mean about the wings.

I didn't want to say what I was leaning towards, because this tends to attract people who seem to take pleasure in pissing on your chips.

We did think we were in with a shout of Caspian Gull, based on the eye, the white head and the plumage, which you can't see that well in my digiscoped picture.

Still keen to have further opinions on this.
 
I observed this gull with Reg and his Dad yesterday.

What interested us about this bird was that its head was very white (with a slight light brown streaking to the back of the neck) combined with the black eye. The bill, although not especially long, looked parralel sided. It stood out like a sore thumb next to the other Herrings.

I have attached another photo of the gull that Reg digiscoped.
 

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It's a second-winter Herring Gull. Simliar birds can be seen here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/polen2/argentatus3cy.html

At least two Caspian Gulls have been present at Stubber's Green recently but they were a third-winter and an adult.

Brian

www.westmidlandsbirding.co.uk
www.worcesterbirding.co.uk
The gulls on this site seem to all have streaking on the head, which our bird lacked.

I think the problem, Kay, is that the pictures aren't great and one might assume that any streaking on the head has been lost due to the picture being over-exposed. I didn't see any streaking on the head in the field.
 
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Hi Reg & all.

The gull has more of Yellow-legged Gull structure than Caspian (note the Caspian feature - 'bump' behind the legs) Flatish back, large unmarked head and small looking dark eye might point towards YLG or CG for that matter. The almost unmarked upperparts and relatively large grey area on median covert and no white tips on the primaries seems to advanced for a 2cy Herring, in all, body looks like a 3cy Herring while primaries looks 2cy. Huge variation must be considered, - look at Reg,s linked Herrings, the standing gull looks like a type 3cy or older?, with well marked white tips to primaries and a large mirror on p10, while the other Herring looks like a 2cy.
Some Herring can be more advanced than otheres and have dark small looking eyes as 2cy (usually pale eyes from 2cy), and adult.

Compare with some Caspians here:

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=subcatkj&cat=1&subcat=2

YLG,s here:

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=subcatkj&cat=1&subcat=1

and Herring here:

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=subcat&cat=3&subcat=16

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=subcat&cat=1&subcat=5&kj=2

However the bill is to thin and short for YLG and to short for Caspian. Also primary projection seems to short for YLG and CG, more in line with Herring, which is my vote for your gull.

JanJ
 
Thank you for an informative and measured response.

There's a lot to take in here and I have a migraine so I'll look at it and the various links in more detail later.
 
Does that stop other gulls turning up?

No, not at all, but Stubber’s Green has gained a reputation for attracting Caspian Gulls on a regular basis and if you went in the hope of seeing one, I can understand how this bird would have attracted your attention. From the two photographs posted here, it still appears to be a Herring Gull. All large gulls can be extremely variable in plumage and there will always be a few that stand out, but for that reason alone.

Brian

www.westmidlandsbirding.co.uk
www.worcesterbirding.co.uk
 
Thank you for an informative and measured response.
There's a lot to take in here and I have a migraine so I'll look at it and the various links in more detail later.

Your bird is advanced for a Herring Gull and does show at least a couple of Caspian Gull features so it was definitely worth a shout. Please don't be put off.

Besides, if you don't like headaches, then you shouldn't look at gulls.;)
 
I wasn't messing around - I really did have a migraine and spent this afternoon napping on the sofa having downed a couple of Ibuprofen.

I like the challenge of gulls and there was no way I was going to convince myself that this was a Caspian Gull without canvassing the opinions of those with more experience.

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread.
 
I realize that a hybrid can never be fully excluded, but I actually see little wrong for this to be a 2w Caspian Gull. The bill could easily fit a (large) male and the underwing is well within the variation.
It is definitely not a Herring Gull.
The thumbnail posted above (message #3) shows two American Herring Gulls, so is not really relevant here.
 
Hi there,
I would like to know what proportion of 2nd-w Caspian Gulls lack a small white mirror on P10? In my opinion, the 2nd-w on the Chasewater website (URL provided in post no. 18) seems to be the same bird as in the original pics (based on the extent of moult being the same, as far as can be made out), and, while it does look a lot better for Caspian in those higher-quality shots, I can't help but note the lack of a white mirror on P10, and was wondering whether this would be within the range of variation for 'pure' Caspian, or if this would indicate Herring Gull genes in there somewhere?
It does look rather good for Caspian otherwise, with the proviso that I have only seen birds of this age in photos.
 
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