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-   -   Bahrain, goose (http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=101707)

AJDH Friday 23rd November 2007 18:23

Bahrain, goose
 
3 Attachment(s)
Help is required in making a definite ID of this goose. We don't get many geese in Bahrain and we think we have narrowed this down to two possibilities but would like expert opinion before recording the sighting.

Thanks.

gerdwichers8 Friday 23rd November 2007 18:26

Hello Adrian

This is a juvenile White-fronted Goose

AJDH Friday 23rd November 2007 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerdwichers8 (Post 1060635)
Hello Adrian

This is a juvenile White-fronted Goose

Thanks, I think this may be a rare bird for these parts. :t:

Hotspur Saturday 24th November 2007 11:45

Is this not a Bean Goose? Am prepared to be shot down but it looks proportionally wrong for WFG and has no belly bands.

bitterntwisted Saturday 24th November 2007 12:05

If juv albifrons, why does it not have a dark nail to the bill?

Twite Saturday 24th November 2007 12:11

Hi.

Juv. White-fronted Goose albifrons. juvs. don't have belly bands, white base to bill hasn't developed yet. Bean Goose has more extensive dark markings on bill.

Twite.

Hotspur Saturday 24th November 2007 12:15

Just had a look through my books and i agree the plumage looksgood for WFG, just feels a bit long necked.

Twite Saturday 24th November 2007 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur (Post 1061193)
Just had a look through my books and i agree the plumage looksgood for WFG, just feels a bit long necked.

Hi.

It looks long necked because it is alert, very alert as the 3rd. pic shows. ;)

Twite.

AJDH Saturday 24th November 2007 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twite (Post 1061197)
It looks long necked because it is alert, very alert as the 3rd. pic shows. ;)

Twite.

That's because it had just seen Howard, who was with me. :-O

lostinjapan Saturday 24th November 2007 13:47

Think we also have to point out, that even in juvenile plumage Bean Geese have orange and not pink bills...

Wonder if there has been a small influx of geese into that part of the Middle East, as Shah also has a pic of a White-fronted Goose (though with the size of it's bill I thought Greylag at first) on another thread.

Sean

Illapa Saturday 24th November 2007 13:58

I think it is Bean goose also, by the color of the beak and legs.
Greetings

AJDH Saturday 24th November 2007 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostinjapan (Post 1061280)
Think we also have to point out, that even in juvenile plumage Bean Geese have orange and not pink bills...

Wonder if there has been a small influx of geese into that part of the Middle East, as Shah also has a pic of a White-fronted Goose (though with the size of it's bill I thought Greylag at first) on another thread.

Sean

We saw three of what we thought were greylag overfly last week. If this is indeed a white-fronted goose, it's only the second record for Bahrain. :t:

StuartReeves Saturday 24th November 2007 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostinjapan (Post 1061280)
Wonder if there has been a small influx of geese into that part of the Middle East, as Shah also has a pic of a White-fronted Goose (though with the size of it's bill I thought Greylag at first) on another thread.

Sean

I'm glad you said that about Shah's Goose Sean, as my initial reaction was Greylag too. Shah's bird is here: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread....95#post1060995 . To my eye Adrian's bird is a much more straightforward juvenile Whitefront.

Stuart

lostinjapan Saturday 24th November 2007 15:35

Just to clarify..I think this is an immature White-fronted Goose. 'Albifrons' is the only likely race.

Greylag can be ruled out on the tail pattern..would show more white on the tail and inner tail band. The wings and rump would be much paler too.

As I already stated, a Bean Goose adult or immature would have an orange bill and this bird has a pink bill. There would also be more black at the base of the bill and tip (as already stated by others).

In flight the mantle/rump looks dark, good for White-fronted, as they are usually a little pale and browner in Bean.

Also seems to have white primary shafts, which is good for White-fronted, whereas Bean doesn't. This bird also appears to have very pale primary-coverts, which is another feature of White-fronted.

Don't suppose you got any pics of the 3 suspected Greylags?

Sean

AJDH Saturday 24th November 2007 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostinjapan (Post 1061349)
Don't suppose you got any pics of the 3 suspected Greylags?

Sean

Sorry Sean, I could only watch through my bins as they were too far away.

Howard King Saturday 24th November 2007 17:13

juhani.kyyro@sci.fi www.virtual-bird.com GOT PICTURES of the Greylag for once he was quicker than AJ. If you look also at the pictures I took of the White Fronted on our web pages (see the following) http://www.hawar-islands.com/blog/id_stub.php things will become clear
PS Adrian was with me

Howard King Saturday 24th November 2007 17:18

Out of interest I also today recieved this message from Nick Moran in the UAE

Hi Howard

This is a 100% Greater White-fronted Goose, juvenile as you say. Blackish bill tip, rather dark head / neck and orange legs (visible clearly in the flight shot) are amongst the good features for separating from 'Lags'.

Incidentally, we are in the middle of an influx of Greater White-fronted Geese here in the UAE - Oscar Campbell and I found groups of 2 and 5 individuals at two locations near Abu Dhabi today, having found 2 on the East Coast (Dibba) last weekend. Like you, Greylags are also the most frequently seen grey goose here. We did see an unusually large flock of that species (21) a week or so back too, so it would appear that there are higher than usual numbers of geese reaching this far south. Additionally, 10 Ruddy Shelduck have been recorded to date in the UAE this autumn, after 3 blank years.

Cheers
Nick

AJDH Saturday 24th November 2007 17:37

Here's a direct link to Juhani's picture.

http://www.virtual-bird.com/replace....ser/Anser.data

Colin Saturday 24th November 2007 17:39

Are the two pictures of the bird on the ground of the same bird? To me the bill colour is different, on the first (left hand) picture it appears very pink, in fact quite light and in the next picture it appears orange. The flight pic rules out Greylag with the lack of lightness in the wings etc as mentioned above. Bean Goose and Pink-footed can be ruled out by the lack of darkness near the base of the bill in a juvenile bird which this is and the bird is too big and has no eye ring so Lesser White-front can be dismissed. This leaves juvenile White-fronted Goose but which race. The most likely in terms of distribution would be albifrons but the colour of the bill is not clear in my opinion.

Colin Saturday 24th November 2007 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJDH (Post 1061452)
Here's a direct link to Juhani's picture.

http://www.virtual-bird.com/replace....ser/Anser.data

The amount of lightness on the upperwing of the trailing bird and the apparent largeness of the bill even at that long range suggests Greylag Goose to me.

Howard King Saturday 24th November 2007 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJDH (Post 1061452)
Here's a direct link to Juhani's picture.

http://www.virtual-bird.com/replace....ser/Anser.data

Wrong link - This is not the picture taken at Badaan

AJDH Saturday 24th November 2007 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin (Post 1061454)
Are the two pictures of the bird on the ground of the same bird? To me the bill colour is different, on the first (left hand) picture it appears very pink, in fact quite light and in the next picture it appears orange. The flight pic rules out Greylag with the lack of lightness in the wings etc as mentioned above. Bean Goose and Pink-footed can be ruled out by the lack of darkness near the base of the bill in a juvenile bird which this is and the bird is too big and has no eye ring so Lesser White-front can be dismissed. This leaves juvenile White-fronted Goose but which race. The most likely in terms of distribution would be albifrons but the colour of the bill is not clear in my opinion.

All pictures are the same bird, the angle of the sun could affect the colours.

AJDH Saturday 24th November 2007 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard King (Post 1061507)
Wrong link - This is not the picture taken at Badaan

Do you have the direct link, this is all I could find on Juhani's site?

JANJ Saturday 24th November 2007 20:14

Also note the obvious white edgings to tertials and greater coverts on Bean:

http://www.tarsiger.com/images/SL/pe...tu_ansfab5.jpg

and compare with GWFG:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?i...icture_id=8597

JanJ

bitterntwisted Saturday 24th November 2007 20:49

No-one's answered my question as to why the original subject bird shows a pale nail. Howard says it has a "blackish bill tip", which I just can't see. To me it has a more adult-like white tip to the bill with, just possibly, a small smidgeon of black. It certainly doesn't have the classic black nail shown here...
http://www.birdguides.com/pictures/d...93&r=0&st=0&q=

Every other feature is, as many have said, consistent with 1st winter albifrons Whitefront and I don't want to deny that's what it is, just curious about this feature.

Thanks,
Graham

Twite Saturday 24th November 2007 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitterntwisted (Post 1061609)
No-one's answered my question as to why the original subject bird shows a pale nail. Howard says it has a "blackish bill tip", which I just can't see. To me it has a more adult-like white tip to the bill with, just possibly, a small smidgeon of black. It certainly doesn't have the classic black nail shown here...
http://www.birdguides.com/pictures/d...93&r=0&st=0&q=

Every other feature is, as many have said, consistent with 1st winter albifrons Whitefront and I don't want to deny that's what it is, just curious about this feature.

Thanks,
Graham

Hi Graham.

Madge and Burn description of juv. W-FG is. Bill duller than adult, with dusky nail and occasionally with greyish shade along sides, becoming more as adult during 1st. winter.

Twite.

Howard King Sunday 25th November 2007 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitterntwisted (Post 1061609)
No-one's answered my question as to why the original subject bird shows a pale nail. Howard says it has a "blackish bill tip", which I just can't see.
Thanks,
Graham

The description of the bird in the email I posted from Nick in the UAE relates not to this set of pictures as taken by Adrian but to those that I took at the same time see http://www.hawar-islands.com/blog/id_stub.php

AJDH Sunday 25th November 2007 06:29

1 Attachment(s)
Apologies for the earlier link to the over flying Greylag geese, the picture in question is attached.

lostinjapan Sunday 25th November 2007 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJDH (Post 1061837)
Apologies for the earlier link to the over flying Greylag geese, the picture in question is attached.

The two birds in the photo are quite obviously Greylag..such large geese with pale underwing and extendive pale grey on the forewing could only be that species.

As to Graham's query, I think Twite answered it sufficiently. As WF Goose attain 1st winter plumage they begin to attain the paler bill tip and also the white 'shield' at the base of the bill.

Cheers

Sean

rob stoff Sunday 25th November 2007 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitterntwisted (Post 1061609)
No-one's answered my question as to why the original subject bird shows a pale nail. Howard says it has a "blackish bill tip", which I just can't see. To me it has a more adult-like white tip to the bill with, just possibly, a small smidgeon of black. It certainly doesn't have the classic black nail shown here...
http://www.birdguides.com/pictures/d...93&r=0&st=0&q=

Every other feature is, as many have said, consistent with 1st winter albifrons Whitefront and I don't want to deny that's what it is, just curious about this feature.

Thanks,
Graham

Collin's guide shows first-winter with a pale nail so must lighten quite quickly.
Rob

lostinjapan Monday 26th November 2007 13:50

Hey Rob

I don't think the Collins does show a 1st winter plumage at all does it? I thought it only showed juvenile and adult birds. I think it might have been misleading for me to use that in my description, as it is the juvenile that is illustrated with a dark tip which becomes a pale nail during their first winter.

WF Geese moult from juvenile into near adult plumage in their first winter and may by November/December already resemble adult White-fronts bill-wise.

Sean

rob stoff Monday 26th November 2007 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostinjapan (Post 1062834)
Hey Rob

I don't think the Collins does show a 1st winter plumage at all does it?

Sean

mine does, captioned albifrons 1st-w with a comment that the blaze develops from end of 1st winter

Rob

JWN Andrewes Monday 26th November 2007 15:26

2 Attachment(s)
I think a lot of the blackish colour on the nail is lost in light glinting off the bill. I've taken the liberty of farting around with the originals (decreased brightness and increased contrast, hope Adrian doesn't mind) and I don't know about you but I can see a grey smudge in the appropriate place.

James

AJDH Monday 26th November 2007 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWN Andrewes (Post 1062903)
I've taken the liberty of farting around with the originals (decreased brightness and increased contrast, hope Adrian doesn't mind)

James

Not as long as it doesn't smell. :-O

lostinjapan Monday 26th November 2007 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob stoff (Post 1062844)
mine does, captioned albifrons 1st-w with a comment that the blaze develops from end of 1st winter

Rob

Hey Rob..my bad:)

Getting confused without books to hand..as I said between juvenile and 1st winter.:eek!:


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