really strange ducks
 

Hi all , what do you make of this?

One of these ducks was photographed at the Albufera de Valencia, the other at the Chiemsee, a lake in Bavaria.

Second duck
 

Here s the second one...

Hi Joern,

That first duck looks a little similar to the Ruddy Duck we get here in the US. I would think it is some sort of "stiff-tailed" duck. I do not quite know what to make of the second photo.

Larry

Could the first one be a juvenile Ring-necked Duck just going into 1st winter plumage?

The first looks like a Ruddy Duck (Oxyura jamaicensis)
The second appears to be a Ferruginous Duck (Aythya nyroca)

Tony Usher
http://www.10X50.com

Both Aythyas - but I wouldn't like to commit myself to any in particular!

Michael

Aythyas
 

Both aythyas I agree but the first one has me beat. There's a lot of juv. ring-neck there but is possibly a ring-neck/tufted hybrid. Second photo is a young ferruginous.

Hi all,
Ouch!TWO oddball Aythyas!
The second looks to have a fair bit of Ferruginous Duck in it(may even be a full Ferruginous female/imm,but the head pattern looks to be a bit off?),but the first bird is really strange!Maybe a female-type Tufted x Ring-necked??
Harry H

So maybe there is a god after all . . . .

.

.

.

.

.

.

Because these two for sure make you want to give up aythyism

3:-)

The first duck looks like a juvenile Ring-necked Duck (although it doesn't look quite right, possible hybrid!!), the second bird looks like an imm. female Southern Pochard (Netta erythrophthalma)

another pic
 

Well here is another pic of the first, I didnot make the pics myself, I just participated in the discussion with the photographers-

I d say Aythya is partly correct-but look at the speculum of the first bird...

well for the speculum area of the first bird look at the first pic, here you dont see much of it.

But look at the general appearance of the bird (how do you call that in english? Jizz??? I dont know)

It is really the same one as in the first photograph...

second pic of second duck
 

this is the second duck again

Could the first bird be an immature Wood Duck? in the second image of the bird it appears to have the jizz of that species.
I still think the second bird is a Southern Pochard though!!

JJM

I now believe the first bird is a redhead. Head shape suggests a possible hybrid though.

Obviously both birds are diving duck hybrids, but with what?

The first one shows speculum feathers with white tips, as it is seen on the first pic of this bird.
That wing pattern does not fit to any Aythya, although the bird in general has a body shape and colours resembling an Aythya.
The relatively long tail does not fit for any Aythya.
This , together with the eye ring and the general appearance in the second photograph of this bird led to the conclusion of an intergeneric hybrid Aix-Aythya.

Mandarin does not produce any hybrids with any other duck species (due to chromosomal differences), therefore the Aix parent must be wood duck (hybrids known with most species of Anas and Aythya and also with ducks from other genera).

But which Aythya could be the other parent? The dark appearance lets me think of Tufted duck, but thats just a guess, I dont know.

Hi Joern,

This seems very surprising - any more details??

Michael

mandarin and hybridisation
 

Hi Michael,

These are the references I remember at the moment, but there were more

Lawton L. Shurtleff and Christopher Savage (1996) The Wood Duck and the Mandarin (The Northern Wood Ducks). University of California Press .

They state they have observed Mandarin-Wood duck pairs, but eggs failed to develop. If I remember all right they state there is a chromosomal difference.

http://www.gamebird.com/refs.html
are looking for a proof of a hybrid x mandarin wood duck, but up to now there seems to be no proof

Gillham, E., and B. Gillham. 1996. Hybrid Ducks: a contribution toward an inventory.
They give some probable hybrid ducklings mandarin x Laysan duck from one brood, I think it was, but these were deformed and died early. They mention some other presumed, but no proven hybrid with mandarin parentage.
On the other hand they mention and document with photographs hybrids of the following species with wood duck:
redcrested pochard
rosybill
pochard
tufted duck
the wigeons
mallard
shoveler
cinnamon teal
and some more I dont remember at the moment

Konrad Lorenz was working on the ancestry of Anatidae based on their ethology and produced lots of hybrids for that, but he never succeeded in any mandarin hybrid, allthough he got wood duck hybrids with some species (i.e. Chestnut teal and mallard).
Part of his hybridisation work is described in the Book:
Warum aber hat das Vieh diesen Schnabel?
It is the published letters of him and another scientist, oskar Heinroth.

Hope that helpsI have mor4e, but not in my head at the moment, have to look it up.
so perhaps I was a bit strict to say mandarin does not produce any hybrids, but at least no one has ever proven a mandarin hybrid up to now.

Joern

Concerning the second bird, I would also suspect an Aix-diving duck Hybrid, but perhaps rather an Aix-Netta than Aix-Aythya, as the head pattern is suggesting something like that and Gilham & Gilham show a photograph of a hybrid Aix sponsa-Netta peposaca with a similar head pattern. The warm reddish colour might suggest ferrugineous duck though, I am really not sure about that one.
In our second bird here the bill shape and the slightly spotted breast point to Aix.

Please give me your comments, and if there are any other photographs of such odd ducks, I would like to see them...

And, Michael, I am not sure if my ID is correct, but well, if yes, you neednt stop about it, two half Aythyas make at least one full aythyism ;)

Hi Michael and all others interested,
Found some more info concerning Aix hybrids at this site.

http://212.187.155.84/wnv/Subdirecto...tml#Aviculture

There are some interesting informations under Aviculture Information (Captive Management).
On Mandarin hybridization they say:
· Pairing with Aix sponsa – Wood duck has been reported but eggs were infertile; there have been no confirmed hybrids. N.B. these ducks have a different chromosome number from other waterfowl; hybridisation appears to be impossible.
On Wood duck hybridization they say
· These ducks (Aix sponsa – Wood duck) are promiscuous and hybridisation is common, particularly with Netta rufina – Red-crested pochard and Aythya ferina – Common pochard drakes.

What do you think, could those two possibilities be these hybrid combinations?

Joern

Hi Joern,

I suppose the first one could be Netta rufina x Aix sponsa, but I don't know enough about hybrid ducks to commit myself.

Thanks for the info on the reasons for the lack of Aix hybrids, I'm surprised no-one has shoved them in different genera yet.

Michael

Hi Michael, during Lorenz working time with ducks, somebody, not Konrad Lorenz, actually did a split, I think (Aix galericulata and Lampronessa sponsa).
Lorenz as well as others, was not happy with that. He said allthough there are some differences in the display of the drakes, most other aspects of the behaviour are very similar.

I was looking for more information about this "different chromosome number thingy", but I did not find more on those two species.
But in general, different chromosome numbers can stop interbreeding, because of problems with the different parental chromosome numbers occurring during mitosis, resulting in the embryos death. In other cases it only happens one generation later with the hybrid offspring being sterile, due to problems in the meiosis.
Genetically such species can still be very close, having very similar genes.
Hope, I got this understandable in English , but I think that might be a reason for two species being genetically very close and still not having offspring. One easily forgets that genes and Chromosomes are two different things.

Joern

Your English is fine but-- Huh? For genotypic similarity don't the genes have to be in similar positions on equivalent chromosomes?

Hi Charles,

that is not nessesarily so; due to crossing overs and due to situations where two different chromosomes are combined to a bigger one. Thats how the different chromosome numbers in different species of Drosophila flies happened, for example. But whereas crossing overs are a common occurence, that other thing is not so common.
One slightly different example in humans is that one of the two chromosome 14, I think it was, and one of the two chromosome 21 can stick together with the ends. Then you can get a problem during the meiosis, one egg or sperm cell ending up with two chromosome 21 and the other with none. None is lethal, three of them means a genetical problem called "Mongolismus" or Trisomie 21 in German. English word is similar, i suppose. But as you can conclude from the above you neednt get a problem during meiosis, if the two glued together chromosomes get in one cell and the two ones not glued to gether in the other.
But imagine an individual would have both its chromosome 21 attached to his chromosome 14, then you have a specimen with one pair of chromosomes less than the others, as this would look like one then (function of the genes is not affected).
If there are several such individuals in a small founder population, you may get a species with one chromosome pair less.

I think, thats it, roughly...

Joern