I have used my Tract Toric's and Maven B.2's 9x45 all over Colorado's mountains including extensively inside Rocky Mountain National Park and Yellowstone National Park and I guarantee you there is plenty to look at there and I have never noticed any significant differences in the view between them and my alpha's. I compared my alpha's closely side by side with the Tract and the Maven looking at all kinds of stuff and I saw no differences. Jgraider compared his Tract's to dozens of alpha's in Africa where there is no shortage of birds and animals to look at for weeks and came away with the opinion that there is not enough difference in an alpha to justify the price difference. Yes, we have had plenty to look at!
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Death Of The Alpha? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter [email protected]
- Start date
Those are yummy looking.:t:We sure do...dinner at 6pm sharp...You bring the Red Wine (no Mogan David, please)...I'll be serving these "Alpha Veggies"!:-O :t: B
Ted
Alexis Powell
Natural history enthusiast
I said 8.5x42, not the 8x32. --AP
Alexis Powell
Natural history enthusiast
Hmm...I'm not convinced. When I'm at RMNP or Yellowstone, I'm generally comfortable with something less than the best e.g. I'll use something like 8x32 FL or even 8x20 Ultravids because bird diversity is quite low and it is also rare to encounter a situation when there are many birds or butterflies to sort through, and they tend to be in structurally uncomplicated settings. Biggest challenge in those places is distance (seeing details on very distantly observed birds or mammals). For that, any halfway decent bin with good contrast and CA control in the center of the view will suffice.
--AP
Alexis Powell
Natural history enthusiast
Sounds like "rifle" type viewing to me, where all that is necessary is a bin with decent resolution, contrast, and CA control in the center of the view. Mixed species flocks of e.g. warblers, sparrows, flitting in foliage and brush, are a bigger challenge and put more of a premium on FOV, rapid precise focus, and handling qualities. Same for prairies and marshes with numerous and diverse skippers (butterflies).
--AP
Steve C
Well-known member
I sort of promised myself I'd avoid this quagmire after my second post. However I have to say I happen to agree with JG. I happen to agree with Lee in his post that JG quoted. Saying much more would look like I was supporting Dennis, kind of, but not really as I don't think the alpha is in any sort of danger. Looking back at history I think JG and I both need to be careful of seeming to support Dennis. Anybody does as his opinion is here today gone tomorrow.
Off to bed. Parts of our operation were down to -30*F (that is not a misprint) last night and it is supposed to be 10* colder tonight. Tomorrow is going to be a far too long day.
Off to bed. Parts of our operation were down to -30*F (that is not a misprint) last night and it is supposed to be 10* colder tonight. Tomorrow is going to be a far too long day.
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Alexis Powell
Natural history enthusiast
Sorry, I don't follow. I'm not speculating, but rather speaking from my own experiences on my own and with other birders in various settings/habitats around the world. I find that open settings are not as challenging for bins because FOV and focus are not so important--it's more just a matter of pointing the bin at the target (which is why I call it "rifle" birding). Yes, I've spent plenty of time viewing Scaled Quails. I'll admit, that since I'm primarily a "birder" vs. bird watcher, I'm more interested in IDs than in following a covey once I've made the "tick". Coveys of Scaled Quails don't contain associated species, unlike e.g. flocks of sparrows, warblers, waterfowl, finches, or the mixed flocks in tropical forests e.g. ant or fruit tree associated species, which may present themselves in brush and forest situations at close range (where focus is critical), and be darting in and out of view in lighting that may be very dappled/shaded, making bins useful for making IDs even of very close individuals. I tend to spend much more time working through birds in those situations, working through the many individuals to try to find those few individuals of the rare species in the mix. FOV and rapid focus allows for close-range scanning, and many birds may be best found in the bins first rather than with naked eyes. Not sure if "shot gun" birding would describe the approach, but it is more demanding of handling and optics.
--AP
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"Structurally uncomplicated settings."
Yellowstone and RMNP uncomplicated? There is incredible diversity in these National Parks. There is a huge diversity of birds,wildlife and insects. You have to be kidding me. Have you ever been to either park?
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Is that 40 BELOW ZERO? I thought Colorado was cold with 10 below zero.:eek!:
Alexis Powell
Natural history enthusiast
Many times Dennis, many times. In fact, I'm currently planning to spend a couple weeks this summer in Yellowstone (though not for the meager selection of birds!). Huge diversity is relative. I live mostly between KS and MN. Like any place on earth, both have more to explore than anyone can do fully in a lifetime, but when it comes to overall biodiversity, KS has far more than MN. TX has more than KS. Mexico has more than TX. Freezing temps puts a real damper on terrestrial diversity and the latitudinal (and altitudinal) diversity gradient is very real.
--AP
That sounded like it came from the soul. Almost poetic and an interesting recap of your life. Interesting that even though you like your alpha's the SE could be your one and only. Perhaps you are admitting you don't really NEED alpha's either. Nice post.
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It is true the closer you get to the equator the more critters there are.
Alexis Powell
Natural history enthusiast
I'll give you another example that relates to latitude and structural complexity, this one to do with wood warblers, a group that (unlike living things in general) is most diverse in the north latitudes boreal forest. Warblers migrate to or through MN after they've been to or through states to the south, so technically, they arrive a bit earlier in KS and MO than they do in MN. However, they don't arrive _much_ earlier (only a matter of day to a few days difference). Peak diversity is therefore at approximately the same time, say ~15-20 May. On an average year on that date, all the trees, even the oaks, are fully leafed out in KS and MO, whereas in MN many trees will only be in flower and not leafed out and oaks will only be beginning to show signs of life. Consequently, watching warblers in MN is really easy because they aren't much obscured by foliage. Any bin will do pretty well. In KS and MO, getting views is very tricky. FOV and focus and handling responsiveness are much more important, as is ability to deal with tricky dappled light. Having the best bins possible is of more critical importance to being a successful warbler watcher in KS and MO (and by knowing all species by ear!) than in MN. In KS, getting 25 warbler species in a year is good. In MN, I've seen that many in one morning.
--AP
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Torview
Well-known member
Never tried a Tract or Maven, but I do have an SV, I say the Meopta is pretty damn close to the SV, which is the whole point of your thread, then you post crap like this saying the Meopta is nowhere near a Tract !
You really are full of it.
Well, thats your opinion JG, and you are entitled to it, but you are making a value judgement about other folks' enjoyment and thats about as tenable as doing weight training standing on quicksand.
Lee
pete_gamby
Birds? What Birds?!
Nice to know that it's only taken us, a few others and KK about 15 years to get nearly as good as an alpha:
Imagic BGA (1999)
Imagic BGA PC – adds phase correction (2000)
Imagic BGA PC.ASF – adds aspheric eye lens (2002)
Imagic BGA PC.ASF T – new eyecup and eyelens design (2003)
Imagic BGA PC.ASF T Oasis – adds Oasis prism coating (2005)
Imagic BGA SE – new rubber armouring (2007-2016)
Imagic BGA VHD - new rubber armouring, adds ED, adds oilphobic coating (Feb 2017-)
Et voila, the Tract Toric is born
Just my two cents.
Pete
Imagic BGA (1999)
Imagic BGA PC – adds phase correction (2000)
Imagic BGA PC.ASF – adds aspheric eye lens (2002)
Imagic BGA PC.ASF T – new eyecup and eyelens design (2003)
Imagic BGA PC.ASF T Oasis – adds Oasis prism coating (2005)
Imagic BGA SE – new rubber armouring (2007-2016)
Imagic BGA VHD - new rubber armouring, adds ED, adds oilphobic coating (Feb 2017-)
Et voila, the Tract Toric is born
Just my two cents.
Pete
What Alex is driving at is that there is more to good bins than whether or not you can 'see something in one and not in another'. Although I could point out that with Tract's 8x42 FOV at 377ft and Maven's 8x42 at 388ft there is every chance with a Zeiss SF (444ft) you could see something that you wouldn't see through the other two.
The whole package that is part optical, part mechanical and part personal interaction means some bins feel 'right' for you and some don't. This can happen with mid-priced bins, but just as easily with top priced alphas too.
If folks enjoy their bins they are getting value for money.
Lee
You seem angry, Torview.
Why ?
I am convinced denco puts forward purely provocative statements to see how long this thread can be kept going (I don't think anybody can seriously mean some of the things he has been proposing).
So relax and enjoy ! :t:
RobMorane
Well-known member
Nice to know that it's only taken us, a few others and KK about 15 years to get nearly as good as an alpha:
Imagic BGA (1999)
Imagic BGA PC – adds phase correction (2000)
Imagic BGA PC.ASF – adds aspheric eye lens (2002)
Imagic BGA PC.ASF T – new eyecup and eyelens design (2003)
Imagic BGA PC.ASF T Oasis – adds Oasis prism coating (2005)
Imagic BGA SE – new rubber armouring (2007-2016)
Imagic BGA VHD - new rubber armouring, adds ED, adds oilphobic coating (Feb 2017-)
Et voila, the Tract Toric is born
Just my two cents.
Pete
Pete,
BGA model, now we're talking ! :t:
In 1998, I bought a pair of 10x50 BGA.
They still give, to my eyes, a 3D picture that I really can't find in any Alphas nowadays
(I've tried all the Top Alpha models 2 years ago in order to buy a new pair, mainly for astronomy).
Of course the 20 years old Binos are not perfect, there's CA, no flat field, a "ridiculous" 88m FOW but
to me, the picture is really a 3D one, the focus is still smooth as butter 20 years later and for
daylight viewing, they are still stunning me...
Thumbs up !
About the Alphas and the non Alphas catching up,
I have a little story to give you:
Few years ago, the Rangers of a Mountain National Park here in France,
who needed very good binos, made a public tender (so an European one) in order to get new Binos.
The cost wasn't a criteria, they wanted the best Binos for their use.
Of course, Zeiss, Swaro, Leica answered the bid and have sent sales rep and binos to get field tested.
But they were not the only ones.
At the end, guess who won the bid?
None of the Alphas !
