• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (4 Viewers)

Wompoo Dove said:
What do we know about the timeline for jays when it comes to mimickry. I have owned several parrots who were amazing mimics.

Steller's Jays are in the same genus as the Blue Jay and they also expertly mimic other birds, especially raptors. They learn the calls quickly and keep the calls in their repertoire for only a few years after the model has left the area. While locating and re-locating many dozens of goshawk, Cooper's, sharpshin and Zone-tailed Hawk territories over 40+ years I've found that once a pair of hawk vacates or moves more than say 1/4 mile to a different alternate nest area, the jays (which I'm assuming are pretty sedentary) in the old area keep giving gos calls (both the alarm and begging) for maybe 3-4 years after they are no longer exposed to the hawk's calls on a daily basis, at which point the mimicry fades out of the jays' repertoire. Once a new pair of hawks takes up residence, the local Steller's start imitating the hawks right away, within a couple of weeks.

The function of jays imitating hawks probably has to do with alerting close relatives to the presence of danger and thus has survival value there. The function of imitation for mockers and other mimids has been studied and has do with with sexual selection. With parrots, I'm not sure why they do this but it may have to do with kin recognition in long-lived, social, serially-reproducing organisms. I'm not sure why jays would imitate a large woodpecker but I bet there's some survival value behind it somewhere.

It's handy to have Steller's Jays available to give imitations of gos and thus a clue that there's a nest around. Jays giving gos calls have fooled many a junior field tech, but one good clue that it's a jay and not a gos is that the 4-5 sec. segment of imitated calls always sounds exactly the same - like it was a mechanical playback with the same grouping and inflection each time it's broadcast by the jay. It would be interesting to see if Blue Jays who appear to be imitating IBWO do this too, i.e. whether multiple series of the 'kent'-type calls they give produce similar-looking audiospectrograms.
 
Wompoo Dove said:
I have enjoyed the mimickry of birds for some time now both in the wild and in aviculture. Like perhaps many observers I have heard blue jays do amazing imitations of red shouldered and red shouldered hawks etc. I think an important question arises that I have not seen addressed. What do we know about the timeline for jays when it comes to mimickry. I have owned several parrots who were amazing mimics....

Hi Don, I'm a parrot person too and have seen some take their sweet time learning to mimic and others do so with great speed. But as to Blue Jays I'll pass on one quick anecdotal example from just a few weeks back in my neighborhood that may be instructive: a friend of mine had their outdoor burglar alarm go off accidentally one morning ("wee-eer, wee-eer, wee-eeer") and it took quite a bit of time to shut it down. Later that afternoon she was in her garden when it suddenly went off again, but was coming from a different section of the yard, at which point she realized it wasn't the alarm, it was a blue jay mimicking such -- a one-time exposure apparently being enough to inspire the bird; of course I can't prove it, but I've always believed that sometimes birds mimic for the sheer "fun" of it, and not for any functional reason, and that the good mimics can pick things up very quickly when they want to.
 
Wompoo Dove said:
Fang thanks for your excellent post on Jackson. Lest I become too philisophical this morning I trust that folks here will grant me some grace. Yes a good scientists thinks with his head and is balanced, professional and focuses on facts and data. I do chuckle at us researchers though sometimes since we often think we are disillusoned and overlook one big glaring factor in scientific studies. The human heart. I respectfully would never suggest I know where Mr. Jackson is coming from. However the human heart can lead even the best of scientists to be motivated to become expert wordsmiths who can be used to cloud good evidence depending on what underlying motivational factors are in place. The same amazing heart and minds that produce major scientific discoveries can also be motived to thwart or at least discolor or throw doubt into other discoveries. Science is afterall highly colored by the window of the human mind and heart no matter how righteously we declare ourselves to be "scientific and only work with facts" We are not machines and our gathered data is never free entirely of our humanness.

Don Kimball

So what you are saying is that he is pissed off that he is not front and center in the Arkansas rediscovery, right?
 
gws said:
So what you are saying is that he is pissed off that he is not front and center in the Arkansas rediscovery, right?

No GWS... as I stated I do not know mr. Jackson and have no knowledge of what is going on in his mind or details surrounding his relationships with the scientific community. I am far removed from intimate knowledge of this living here in California. I am simply saying that sometimes scientists for whatever reason can have their data clouded by other things. As to what I am not privy to.

thanks
 
HASnyder said:
Steller's Jays are in the same genus as the Blue Jay and they also expertly mimic other birds, especially raptors. They learn the calls quickly and keep the calls in their repertoire for only a few years after the model has left the area. While locating and re-locating many dozens of goshawk, Cooper's, sharpshin and Zone-tailed Hawk territories over 40+ years I've found that once a pair of hawk vacates or moves more than say 1/4 mile to a different alternate nest area, the jays (which I'm assuming are pretty sedentary) in the old area keep giving gos calls (both the alarm and begging) for maybe 3-4 years after they are no longer exposed to the hawk's calls on a daily basis, at which point the mimicry fades out of the jays' repertoire. Once a new pair of hawks takes up residence, the local Steller's start imitating the hawks right away, within a couple of weeks.

The function of jays imitating hawks probably has to do with alerting close relatives to the presence of danger and thus has survival value there. The function of imitation for mockers and other mimids has been studied and has do with with sexual selection. With parrots, I'm not sure why they do this but it may have to do with kin recognition in long-lived, social, serially-reproducing organisms. I'm not sure why jays would imitate a large woodpecker but I bet there's some survival value behind it somewhere.

It's handy to have Steller's Jays available to give imitations of gos and thus a clue that there's a nest around. Jays giving gos calls have fooled many a junior field tech, but one good clue that it's a jay and not a gos is that the 4-5 sec. segment of imitated calls always sounds exactly the same - like it was a mechanical playback with the same grouping and inflection each time it's broadcast by the jay. It would be interesting to see if Blue Jays who appear to be imitating IBWO do this too, i.e. whether multiple series of the 'kent'-type calls they give produce similar-looking audiospectrograms.


Hi HasSnyder. Thanks for this super and articulate window into bird imitation and behavior and particularlly I respect your long service into the studies of raptors and stellars jays. I think the only thing I might add is that we also need to be careful that we dont shy away from being open to the fact that mimickry can be just plain enjoyable it seems for some species. If we have any doubts about a stellars jays capability of mimicking for fun perhaps it wouldnt be too great a stretch to look at their relatives the crows, and ravens. A bit removed gentically from its relative the Common Raven (corvus corax) I would posture but it is hard to ignore that Ravens have been observed tweaking the tails of timber wolves at kill sites for no particulary good reason other than to interact and be the avian "smart ass" of their world if I can use plain old venacular here... It may be that as simple is that Stellar's Jays may just simply gain some sort of enjoyment out of imitating ivory bills, perhaps as unscientific a position as that may be.

I learned an important thing from your note though that Stellar's Jays rapidly learn calls and the information on raptor mimicking was facinating... Thanks!

Don
 
cyberthrush said:
Hi Don, I'm a parrot person too and have seen some take their sweet time learning to mimic and others do so with great speed. But as to Blue Jays I'll pass on one quick anecdotal example from just a few weeks back in my neighborhood that may be instructive: a friend of mine had their outdoor burglar alarm go off accidentally one morning ("wee-eer, wee-eer, wee-eeer") and it took quite a bit of time to shut it down. Later that afternoon she was in her garden when it suddenly went off again, but was coming from a different section of the yard, at which point she realized it wasn't the alarm, it was a blue jay mimicking such -- a one-time exposure apparently being enough to inspire the bird; of course I can't prove it, but I've always believed that sometimes birds mimic for the sheer "fun" of it, and not for any functional reason, and that the good mimics can pick things up very quickly when they want to.


Hi Cyberthrush... your handle is terrific by the way...

This is a great illustration of instant learning and imitation by a jay and a great example where it appears there is no particular scientific reason for jays to do this. I whole heartedly agree that imitation for some birds is simply for "the sheer fun of it". After all the family of crows, ravens, and jays have been well documented with behavior that one can label 2 ways... ie. scientifically accepted social behavior.... or raucous avian hijinks. I prefer to label them either way depending on whether I have a researchers hat on or my civilian ordinary joe hat.

Thanks for your fun and excellent post!

Don Kimball
 
Wompoo Dove said:
Hi HasSnyder.
It may be that as simple is that Stellar's Jays may just simply gain some sort of enjoyment out of imitating ivory bills, perhaps as unscientific a position as that may be.
Don

The CLO used to have a record for sale with a mockingbird singing an amazing series of imitated calls, including traffic and playground noises plus dozens of identifiable birds. A Hispanolian Parrot of my aquaintance did a great imitation in Spanish which ran on for hours of a televised sports broadcast complete with regular crescendos of excitement at touchdowns.

That's an interesting thought about corvids just imitating for fun, because I sometimes find myself wondering whether the jays aren't just doing it for grins, too, to watch MY reaction. The gos-area mimicry often, but not always, happens as an intruder (me) approaches the Steller's home base; it's interesting that in the western conifer forests they pick a call to imitate that is associated with something that merits their attention like a dangerous hawk . Maybe an IBWO flying overhead is enough of a momentary UFO, a sizeable and unusual intruder that the Blue Jays pick up on their calls too and imitate them.
 
Digital video artifacts

Do all digital video cams produce those black halo artifacts around light colored objects like the cam that shot the Luneau video? The artifacts on the video (look around the hand and oar in the foreground) add a prominent black edge to everything; it makes it impossible to see the actual color of the trailing edge of the bird in that video. Is it really a good idea to use cameras that would add a black trailing edge to a snowy egret to try to document Ivorybills, where the color of the trailing edge is a critical ID mark?
 
Billbill said:
Do all digital video cams produce those black halo artifacts around light colored objects like the cam that shot the Luneau video? The artifacts on the video (look around the hand and oar in the foreground) add a prominent black edge to everything; it makes it impossible to see the actual color of the trailing edge of the bird in that video. Is it really a good idea to use cameras that would add a black trailing edge to a snowy egret to try to document Ivorybills, where the color of the trailing edge is a critical ID mark?

Hi Bill:

I have an excellent video cam that I used extensively in Easy Africa last summer. It does not produce these results and you can blow up the image to a good size and it remains sharp and clear. With due respects to the luneau video I am not sure I would take my Sony DCR VX-2100 and mount it on the front of a kayak though simply because it is not waterproof and I would not be able to easily replace it. Respectfully, perhaps the video cam that luneau used was more of a service oriented model and not more of a prosumer model. One of the big considerations I used before purchasing the Sony was how it handled low light. This could be another area which is problematic with the luneau video. I love shooting video but am far from an expert. Perhaps others could shed light on what sort of equipment lunea used.
 
Wompoo Dove said:
Ravens have been observed tweaking the tails of timber wolves at kill sites for no particulary good reason other than to interact and be the avian "smart ass" of their world if I can use plain old venacular here... Don

Interesting - I have seen the exact same thing with the ravens tweaking the tails of condors at a feeding site while neither could get to the carcass till a Golden Eagle finished pigging out.
 
HASnyder said:
The CLO used to have a record for sale with a mockingbird singing an amazing series of imitated calls, including traffic and playground noises plus dozens of identifiable birds. A Hispanolian Parrot of my aquaintance did a great imitation in Spanish which ran on for hours of a televised sports broadcast complete with regular crescendos of excitement at touchdowns.

That's an interesting thought about corvids just imitating for fun, because I sometimes find myself wondering whether the jays aren't just doing it for grins, too, to watch MY reaction. The gos-area mimicry often, but not always, happens as an intruder (me) approaches the Steller's home base; it's interesting that in the western conifer forests they pick a call to imitate that is associated with something that merits their attention like a dangerous hawk . Maybe an IBWO flying overhead is enough of a momentary UFO, a sizeable and unusual intruder that the Blue Jays pick up on their calls too and imitate them.


Yes HASnyder and of course my inquiring mind wants to know do blue jays ever imitate pileated woodpeckers..? I have lived for decades with both of these species on my doorstep in Atlantic Canada and have never heard jays immitating pileateds. hmmm.... I find your point about jays perhaps imitating IBWO because they are a "momentary UFO" particularly facinating... much to think about here.... I realize its good to remain staunchly scientific in some casses but sometimes I do think we can exercise some flexibility when we are talking about our avian subjects. Great post!
 
White River NWR

Yesterday rain and thundershowers all day was promissed to give way to clear to partly cloudy skies today, but it did not happened, mostly overcast. Still, however, moderated woodpecker activity on WRNWR this morning fading before midday. The Piliateds seem to be moving in pairs or more now. I was looking forward to hearing cavity building sounds today but that did not happen either and I blame it on overcast skies. With three inches plus of rain yesterday one's Kayak or Pirogue should float nicely now in Bayou De View. First time since May 2005. Nothing to report today, my bad.
On another note, in reading Jackson's 2006 publication to AUK, he mentions that the ARUs recordings presented to him and his colleagues by Cornell were on the WRNWR near a "well used road and a campground". I am wondering if these are two totally separate places and separate recordings or just one place and one recording between a road and a camp.There is a campsite on the Northern edge of my search area. Can anyone( close to Cornell perhaps) confirm that this "campground" was at one time an old house place on the bank of the White River?
 
Last edited:
HASnyder said:
Interesting - I have seen the exact same thing with the ravens tweaking the tails of condors at a feeding site while neither could get to the carcass till a Golden Eagle finished pigging out.

2 amazing books by New England scientist Dr. Berndt Heinrich document ravens and their avian smarts and behavior in a very readable yet objective scientific presentation. "Ravens in Winter" "The Mind of a Raven" Both must reads for corvid fans....

Anyone know about similar works for blue jay?
 
Steve, thanks so much for the clarification, I will yield to your method. Any consistent method is A-okay with me, I just want us all to be on the same page. Today I was in some wonderful habitat getting as much data as I could on woodpecker sign. In 5 hours I managed to get data on a whopping 8 trees. But it certainly was a learning experience. One particular tree was a real eye-popper and I think has something important to tell us about wood texture and gouge width. And I do want to caution people about beetle sign. Some beetle sign can look very much like woodpecker gouges. More about that later.

The main thing I wanted to say is that when you are out in the field, in good woodpecker habitat, listening and looking, you are struck by three things:

1) how difficult it is to even see a fairly common woodpecker like the pileated. Heard at least a dozen, saw the briefest glimpse of one.

2) how unusual the suspicious recordings from Arkansas are. A mature hardwood forest is such a vivid world, both acoustically and visually. You hear everything. You hear blue jays, cardinals, woodpeckers, chorus frogs, everything. What you do not hear is anything like those recordings. The quality, the cadence of those recordings is so odd.

3) how VERY unusual the kind of foraging sign Steve has posted is. I saw dozens of scaled trees, dozens of trees with foraging pits. Lots of sign that looked like pileated work. I saw nothing remotely resembling those photos.
 
We have a pair of sharpshins that frequent our yard and a blue jay that has there calls down. The jay always uses it just before coming to the feeder, I believe in effort to scare away the sparrows and squirrels. It has made me wounder if a jay making a kent call might just be trying to startle a woodpecker that has just uncovered a tasty morsel.
 
Which brings me back to the question of just how long does a Bluejay keep a call in its history. Does the call die with the Bluejay or is it passed on to future generation? If it doesn't pass on, then where and when did the Bluejay hear the "kent" to mimic it?
 
KCFoggin said:
Which brings me back to the question of just how long does a Bluejay keep a call in its history. Does the call die with the Bluejay or is it passed on to future generation? If it doesn't pass on, then where and when did the Bluejay hear the "kent" to mimic it?

Hi KC PLease note the following quote from post # 1525 from
Has Snyder:

Steller's Jays are in the same genus as the Blue Jay and they also expertly mimic other birds, especially raptors. They learn the calls quickly and keep the calls in their repertoire for only a few years after the model has left the area. While locating and re-locating many dozens of goshawk, Cooper's, sharpshin and Zone-tailed Hawk territories over 40+ years I've found that once a pair of hawk vacates or moves more than say 1/4 mile to a different alternate nest area, the jays (which I'm assuming are pretty sedentary) in the old area keep giving gos calls (both the alarm and begging) for maybe 3-4 years after they are no longer exposed to the hawk's calls on a daily basis, at which point the mimicry fades out of the jays' repertoire. Once a new pair of hawks takes up residence, the local Steller's start imitating the hawks right away, within a couple of weeks...


I would love to know more about the possibility of passing on calls to the next generation though in blue jays. While I would think that unusual, knowing the crow, jay and raven family I wouldnt throw the concept of passing imitations on to the next generation away thats for sure.

Don
 
Last edited:
Two important lessons about woodpecker sign from yesterday's outing:

lesson #1: Beware of pseudogouges. Initially, I was assuming these marks were woodpecker scaling gouges.

http://home.att.net/~fangsheath/P1010021.JPG

When such marks are few and far between, they often appear quite straight and consistently horizontal. They are always on the surface of the sapwood and often on trees that have clearly had bark removed. However, after seeing several other trees, like this one, I believe they are in fact beetle tunnels. I saw many trees that appeared to have had bark removed by woodpeckers but most had no actual woodpecker gouges.

http://home.att.net/~fangsheath/P1010045.JPG

When only the bark has been removed and the sapwood is relatively untouched, "gouges" are suspect. Often there are only a few of these marks on the tree and they can be very straight. But beetle tunnels can often be recognized by their very smoothed-off edges.

lesson #2: Beware of wet, spongy trees. This tree seemed very impressive, with its straight scaling gouges consistently wider than 4 mm.

http://home.att.net/~fangsheath/P1010042m.jpg

However, a closer examination showed that the entire tree had a wet, spongy texture, unlike any of the other trees examined. Although patches of bark clung surprisingly well, the tree was quite rotten. I made a few gouges with my average pileated beak and indeed they were wider than 4 mm. The value of making such "calibration" gouges is clear. If you don't have synthetic bird beaks (and I assume most of you don't), a wood chisel or screwdriver of known tip width is better than nothing.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 6 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top