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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (2 Viewers)

curunir said:
Is Katy losing it? The above sounds like a Y chromosome statement to me.

Yes, that's what I thought! :C
What is more important, that we KNOW that there ARE or ARE NO Ivorybills, or that we might shoot one of the very few that have at best still survived? Human beings are VERY strange creatures! (I include myself here.)
 
MMinNY said:
Just to be clear, I'm more worried about some yahoo with a gun and perhaps a beef with the ESA than any scientist.

Back when ESA protection of the Spotted Owl was seen as a threat to logging interests, one saw trucks with "Eat More Owl" bumper stickers.

Should a similar land-use conflict eventually arise over IBWO, I just can't imagine those same folks with "Eat More 'Pecker" stickers...
 
London Birder said:

Hi London Birder, you know, its sometimes hard to know what you are clapping. AnywayI'm glad you're enjoying the thread!

One of the problems of this thread is that there is rarely if ever any new information coming to light these days. I signed on to the Cornell "updates" e-mail list and to be honest there has been virtually nothing of worth on that (with the exception of the aberrant PIWOs perhaps). On here we are left with "I know that someone reliable in Florida, knows someone who met someone who saw an IBWO" type reports, with the latest being a naked eye report from a bus of one on a telegraph pole! :eek!:

I think its fair to say that most of the people on this thread are waiting/hoping for something much better.

In the meantime, having done the Luneau video to death, we are left with Cinclodes' videos and i agree with (whoever it was I can't remember) that there hasn't been much discussion of the substance of it. I've seen some people saying that fishcrow.com is a wind-up but I don't believe that.

However, I am not convinced that the bird is an IBWO.

Here are some (unscientific) points to start the discussion if anyone is interested:

1] the quality of the video is poor (it doesn't matter why, canoe, lighting, terrain etc etc, its not a criticism just an observation) and so it is hard to see many aspects of the bird. So my first impression is that you (I) can't identify this bird from the video with any confidence but ..

2] the pale panel on the secondaries of the bird's right wing as it flys to the right is very interesting, but how can we be sure it isn't reflected light? bearing in mind that this feature doesn't appear in any other part of the video clips posted on fishcrow.com as far as i can see

3] much has been made about head shape - yes the bird perched on the tree in profile looks like it has a long thin neck, however how much of that is due to it being almost in sillhouette ie, does the light coming from behind make the neck look thinner than it is?

4] bill shape/length - how many pixels are we talking here? - I can see that it has got a bill but that's it for me

5] posture - I don't see many PIWOs because I live in the UK - so when I saw one this Spring adopt the same posture as the fishcrow bird 5 times in one sighting (each time it stopped as it slowly shimmied up a tree after drumming) I ruled this out as a diagnostic feature. if I can see PIWO do this in one sighting then they must do it often

6] peeping out from behind a tree, PIWOs don't do this - I don't buy this. I'm pretty sure that all woodpeckers do this some times as well as squirrels, nuthatches, (choupique) etc etc

7] flight action from one tree to another - I can't comment because I haven't seen enough PIWOs

8] flight action when leaving the tree - I'll leave that up to others too - its too quick and blurry for me

So, I think it could be an IBWO and it could be a PIWO -does that start the ball rolling for anyone?
 
Bonsaibirder said:
Hi London Birder, you know, its sometimes hard to know what you are clapping. AnywayI'm glad you're enjoying the thread!

howdy Bonsai, well, I was clapping and laughing at the comment above where I clapped and laughed ... why? 'cause I found it funny .. is that ok with you?

I'm glad you're glad I'm enjoying the thread ... awfully nice of you ..
 
I don't think it's analogous in the least. Merely asserting it doesn't make it so. If you elaborate in detail how it is logically consistent, I might respond.

The CLO does not equal the USG. Just for starters.

Terry O'Nolley said:
Of course you would consider it "bogus". It is logically consistent - but doesn't fit your world view.
 
Answer to Piltdownwoman:
:rediscoveries, Cozumel Thrasher and Robust Redhorse, and I only did some cursory research; I'm sure there have been others. World wide, rediscoveries have happened many times.. [/QUOTE]

Robust Redhorse, a two-foot long fish found, of all places......in southern bottomland swamps.......specifically the Oconee/Altamaha area of Georgia, rediscovered in 1990s, first time seen in the 20th century.

How could a large, slow-moving, edible vertebrate species just hide out for over 100 years in North America with:

a) all our ecologists doing studies of aquatic life?
b) thousands of Georgia fishermen dangling hooks in their habitat?
c) destruction of its habitat so nearly complete?
d) limited ability (due to dams) to migrate to new habitat?

For that matter, how could 8 or 10 new species of birds be discovered in Peru in the last 20 years? And how many of them were photographed before they were collected? How could a new species of monkey be discovered in Bolivia a couple years ago (by asking local hunters)? And a large new species of primate in Tanzania last year? And a new family of rodent (Laonastes sp.) in Laos this year (collected by hunters)?

You boys and girls keep looking for IBWO, and don't forget to keep asking hunters.....and, remember, Tanner said he thought IBWO moved long distances. Who said the bird seen in Arkansas in 2004-05 isn't in Tennessee today, or Mississippi, or????

These folks busting their butts out looking for IBWO aren't wasting their time are they Piltdownwoman? After all, what fool would look for a big ole fish that hadn't been seen in over 100 years?
 
MMinNY said:
On edit: I said nothing about North America or vertebrates, but to name two recent North American (I'm counting Mexico as North America) rediscoveries, Cozumel Thrasher and Robust Redhorse, and I only did some cursory research;

So two so far, how about some more folks (this is an honest question). How many North American vertebrates have been rediscovered after people thought they were extinct?


I'm using NA cause it is well developed and well studdied.
 
Andigena said:
Robust Redhorse, a two-foot long fish found, of all places......in southern bottomland swamps.......specifically the Oconee/Altamaha area of Georgia, rediscovered in 1990s, first time seen in the 20th century.


These folks busting their butts out looking for IBWO aren't wasting their time are they Piltdownwoman? After all, what fool would look for a big ole fish that hadn't been seen in over 100 years?

No, they are not wasting their time, but I think that they continue to prove the existance if PIWO, and have never gotten anywhere close to proving IBWO. I think the bird needs to be looked for (went on a bit of a diatribe about that a few days ago), but I think the evidence CLO has given never rules out PIWO, and the video rules out IBWO in several places.

Would sight records have been enough for the Redhorse to be declared extant, or did it take a specimen or phopo?

Thanks for the info on the fish. As to fishermen being big ole fools, well I think I'll leave that one alone (that was a joke.)

FYI: Hunters have essentially no reports of IBWO even thought the area is extensively hunted in the fall.
 
Piltdownwoman said:
FYI: Hunters have essentially no reports of IBWO even thought the area is extensively hunted in the fall.

Ah . . . Not exactly true. Hunters have seen the IBWO, but refuse to come forth with detailed reports. Just read Choupique's posts in this thread.
 
Andigena said:
Robust Redhorse, a two-foot long fish found, of all places......in southern bottomland swamps.......specifically the Oconee/Altamaha area of Georgia, rediscovered in 1990s, first time seen in the 20th century.

Robust Redhorse is a particularly apt and suggestive example. After the initial rediscovery of this fish, isolated remnant populations were found in two other states.
 
Andigena said:
For that matter, how could 8 or 10 new species of birds be discovered in Peru in the last 20 years? And how many of them were photographed before they were collected?

very easily

go birding in Peru and you'll understand in five minutes

at least some were photographed - Rasmus will be able to supply the details if he can be bothered, i wouldn't blame him if he can't be!

Tim
 
I think this is an interesting question. I spent about 20 minutes on google and came up with the following. I was using very broad search terms, so I'm pretty confident there are more. But before I get to those, let's not forget the Ivory-Bill itself in the 1920s, and the Eskimo Curlew, which was widely believed to be extinct by the early 20th-century (at least according to the source below) and was rediscovered more than once.

http://www.nature.ca/notebooks/English/eskimo.htm

There's also the Black-Footed Ferret, which was believed extinct, albeit only for a couple of years.

On google, I found the Relict Leopard Frog from the Southwest, though its status as a distinct species is in question.

http://www.reptilesofaz.com/Turtle-Amphibs-Subpages/h-r-onca.html

As an aside, if my memory is accurate, the Red Wolf (about which similar questions persist) was believed extinct for several years in the early '70s; the main issue there was hybridization with Coyotes, so it's not directly on point. I'm relying on memory as to the extinction issue, and I could be mistaken.

Also the Greenback Cutthroat Trout (a subspecies), which was believed extinct from the 1930s until the '90s.

Newly discovered vertebrates in the last 15 years or so:

Michoacan Deer Mouse (Mexico, new genus too).

Sonoma Tree Vole (Northern California).

Can anyone add to the list?




Piltdownwoman said:
So two so far, how about some more folks (this is an honest question). How many North American vertebrates have been rediscovered after people thought they were extinct?


I'm using NA cause it is well developed and well studdied.
 
there are several rediscoveries of birds....

in Asia alone for a start

I thought you might have come up with more...

however, most were not thought to be extinct, just in areas not fully explored or very difficult terrain

Tim
 
I was only looking in North America and at vertebrates in general, in keeping with the question.

Tim Allwood said:
there are several rediscoveries of birds....

in Asia alone for a start

I thought you might have come up with more...

however, most were not thought to be extinct, just in areas not fully explored or very difficult terrain

Tim
 
While it is true that Pilty asked about vertebrates, there is a big difference between a North American bird (that hundreds of thousands of North American birders would recognize when they saw it) and a Sonoma Tree Vole that probably only a hundred North American mammalogists would recognize in the hand.

BTW, Red Wolves were never thought to be extinct. Members of the last packs in the Southeast were taken in and bred and the genetics was closely monitored due to an influx of coyote genes. These were then reintroduced to a couple islands in the southeast, and coastal North Carolina.

Also Eskimo Curlew can be a difficult ID in the field. It is probable that birds persisted and were overlooked by birders.

I don't think this proves anything. But what the hell, we're not about 'proving' anything on this forum are we?

Remember when the announcement first came out. They really played up the fact that this area was so remote. Then we find out the sightings were 100 yards from a highway bridge, the area is heavily hunted, there are miles of ATV trails (White River NWR), there has been Swainson's Warbler researchers there for years, they've had people doing Christmas Bird Counts for years.....in other words, not so isolated and remote (and yes, I have been to both refuges, so this IS personal experience). So, yes, I do think that while it is POSSIBLE for an IBWO population to persist in the truly remote areas of the southeast, I just don't find it that PROBABLE.

prob·a·ble
1. Likely to happen or to be true: War seemed probable in 1938. The home team, far ahead, is the probable winner.
2. Likely but uncertain; plausible.

pos·si·ble
1. Capable of happening, existing, or being true without contradicting proven facts, laws, or circumstances.
2. Capable of occurring or being done without offense to character, nature, or custom.
 
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