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Curlew sp. at Minsmere (3 Viewers)

Ashley, may I offer some points:

1, the bill appears no thinner than the accompanying Eurasian Curlews
2, from the base to 2/3s along the bill are a horn/pink colour
3, The actual body appears not to much smaller than Eurasian curlew, if at all, in flight yeserday the bird was hard to pick out on size
4, The flank markings do not appear heart shaped or spotted on the right side, with only the last few on the right side around the legs appearing like that

These are some of the reasons why I beleive the bird to be a Eurasian Curlew. But the birds underwing is clearly pure white and the upperwing is a nice contrasting pattern, so who knows!
 
An interesting debate that needs to be had is what does this episode imply for the Northumberland bird.. which while it looked a load better then this one... there must be now be significant doubt... Clearly it is possible for EC / Steppe Whimbrel or some hybrid to show features thought to be associated with SBC.
 
Steve said:
So what IYOHO is it Tim ?


Tim's field notes... soon to be framed and auctioned on Ebay are reputed to be labelled Curlew. Not Curlew spp, or SB Curlew.
But he will be too modest to say so!
 
A friend of mine who saw the curlew with me yesterday saw the Northumberland bird, he says that that bird was completely different to the minsmere bird, in terms of bill structure, size, breast patterning and behaviour. The two shouldn't be thrown in together. It certainly shouldn't be applied that if this bird isn't one then the Northumberland bird isn't a Slender-billed either. Two completley different case studies, we should be looking at the Northumberland bird as means to help identify potential Slender-billed Curlews as in the case of the Minsmere bird.

Oh, Tim, ok, one less pint but keep the pies coming along caterer boy!
 
Tim I wasn't meaning that you hadn't clearly stated your argument, simply highlighting what was in the last message and saying that is what is so annoying about some posts. So I appologise for not making that clearer.

These are some of the reasons I feel/felt (still not 100% sure) it was more akin to SBC than EC, and they are based on what I saw in the field not what is in the photos.

The bill looked very thin to me, after seeing the bird in direct comparison to EC it was shorted and slimmer (I have no practicle knowlegde of how this SBC bills should be I'm afraid). Also the angle of the curve was far more Whimbrel like than the accompanying curlew.

The head is sloped from the bill back, not rounded like every other EC I have seen (I thought that was meant to be one of the field characteristics, but it seems to have been ignored by everyone so far).

Personally I have never seen such a pale EC (not really proof I know).

Structure, as I mentioned earlier, there is a short video on BWPi of SBC and the bird I saw looked similar structurally and in Jizz, but as I have never seen a genuine 100% pucker SBC I could be wrong.

Clear white underwing coverts!!! I do not know of any EC that has shown these before, but I stand to be corrected.

Flank spotting, on the left of the bird, looked well within SBC appearance, but this is again based on what I have read or seen in pictures. Damn to be so young that morocan SBCs were long gone before I became old enough to see them!!!!!!

Expert oppinion!! I am a firm believer that if someone with such vast experience as Didier Vangerluwe, is sure of the ID, then there is a good reason to believe him (the reason I went!!)

Well I am done now, but I look forward to peoples constructive reasoning as to why I am wrong!!
 
James Eaton said:
A friend of mine who saw the curlew with me yesterday saw the Northumberland bird, he says that that bird was completely different to the minsmere bird, in terms of bill structure, size, breast patterning and behaviour. The two shouldn't be thrown in together. It certainly shouldn't be applied that if this bird isn't one then the Northumberland bird isn't a Slender-billed either. Two completley different case studies, we should be looking at the Northumberland bird as means to help identify potential Slender-billed Curlews as in the case of the Minsmere bird.
Quite right.

What a shame that more people didn't go and see the Northumberland bird instead of not believing it, dissing it or getting carried away by the general apathy.

The Minsmere bird has been very instructive and the debale here interesting (despite the arrogant claim of one person that it was arguing in circles and they'd sorted it out straight away).

I haven't seen it, but was initially sceptical on early photos, extremely intrigued by later photos and discussions (thanks here to Marke for getting thinsg going and keeping the discussion flowing) and like I said earlier, if I was a lister I'd've gone to see it (but it's a hell of along way from Shetland).

If it is confirmed as an adult (I've only looked at the Holarctic wader guide which doesn't give the same tertial criteria for SBC as Eurasian Curlew) then the case for SBC does seem to collapse. But we all have a chance of ID ing one now if we do come across one in the future.
 
Ashley beolens said:
Tim I wasn't meaning that you hadn't clearly stated your argument, simply highlighting what was in the last message and saying that is what is so annoying about some posts. So I appologise for not making that clearer.


Clear white underwing coverts!!! I do not know of any EC that has shown these before, but I stand to be corrected.

Hey, no worries Ash, my fault, i think i got my wires crossed

the unbarred axillaries and white underwing of a small proportion of EC is in the BB article on the Druridge bird and i think is also quoted in BWP (full version)

Jamesy Boy - watch your pies - no one knows what goes on in the kitchen!
 
Ashley beolens said:
Secondly BWP also states that when in first non-breeding tertials are usually the same as juv, NOT always. all these reasons coming out do NOT prove the bird is not a 1st winter female SBC. Please if it isn't one someone find me a reason that cannot be refuted.
Ashley, this sounds interesting, but have you left a word out? I don't have BWP so don't know what they mean by "first non-breeding". I would normally think of this as first summer. According to the BBRC, the replacement of the tertials during SBC's spring moult is "highly variable, so these are not helpful for aging". Clearly, the implication is that some first-summer birds will show juvenile-like tertials, others adult-like ones.

The BBRC summarised the written descriptions of the Druridge bird as follows: "The tertials were well described, with pale 'saw edges' (toothed), about seven or eight dark bars and showed some gingery tones near the dark centres" (though in fact the photographic evidence suggested that they had "less than seven or eight bars, perhaps only six"). So the tertials showed saw-toothed edges, not the ladder-like pattern of the Minsmere bird. Unless BWP is saying that SBCs can have adult-like tertials from the word go, then logic would suggest that all first-winter birds ought to show a pattern similar to the Druridge bird.
 
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Yeah first winter basically the plumage it should be going into. I think we are definately finding out that the info on SBC is far from comprehnsive, so I will wait for Didiers article and reassess then!

Does saw shaped (as in the Druridge bird) mean pointed as in triangular? if so then the picture by Mark Andrews http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/gallery/display.cgi?gallery=gallery9 (first on the page) shows this doesn't it?

Found this through surfbirds in an article by Birdlife international about the Minsmere bird.

Dr Mike Rands, Director and Chief Executive of BirdLife International
commented: "If the Minsmere bird proves to be a Slender-billed Curlew it
will be fantastic news - the fact it is a young bird means the species
has bred somewhere in the world this year.

CJW still sure its an Adult ;)
 
I think the text is a bit open to be honest when talking about 1st winter (1st non breeding) it says "Like adult non-breeding, but juvenile flight-feathers, wing-coverts, and usually back, rump, tertials, and outer tail-feathers retained:" so usually retained?

Timings: "Post-juvenile. Partial. Probably starts soon after fledging; 1st non-breeding attained October–December." Pic up a book guys :t:
 
Wish I'd seen the Druridge bird now. Just been looking at a photo of it with the aid of a magnifying glass and it does look as though at least two of the tertials were very similar in pattern to the Minsmere bird's - though the bars appear fewer and broader.
 
I didn't say that Tim! I am simply quoting the text which is ambiguos, but it could potentially have either and still be a first winter rather than it having to be an adult, as has been stated. I think it shows wedges rather than barring personally, but that is based on the photos not what I noted, as I completely failed to note the tertials at all when I saw the bird. If it is a moulting bird of either SBC or EC then we may find out the species conclusivly the longer it stays, who knows come May nest year it might be an Adult Slender-billed curlew! then what will the doubters say?? :)

I too now wish I had seen the Druridge bird, at least I would have something with compare then. I must admit I totally dismissed that bird, oh how I weep at night now.
 
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