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Curlew sp. at Minsmere (5 Viewers)

ground-roller said:
"I could name many features pro-SBC - namingly; Size, bill length and shape, tail pattern, underpart colouration and pattern (or shape) of spots/ovals on left flank, dark crown appearance, dark loral area, slightly more obvious supercilium, overall pale ness, very white underwing!! "

If you could see all this you've got immense optics and had far better views than anyone I have spoken to . If it had all these features i'm sure it would be slender-billed. When we were there (thursday in fairly poor light) no one could see any plumage or posture features that were sufficient to really conclude we were watching an extinct bird.

I've just got back and can say I could see most of these features. It was significantly smaller and the bill much shorter than the the Eurasian Curlews it was with, couldn't see the tail pattern and not convinced about the spots on the flanks but noted (yes, I took some notes too ;O) a dark crown, faint supercilium, overall paleness (remarkably like Barwit) and pale underwing. I need to do some serious reading before I make my mind up but I would highly recommend going to see it. If nothing else it's been educational!
 
I'd like to see it as an educational thing.. can't be r'sed with the crowds though.. perversely I'd be more likely to dgo if it was put out as def Eurasian :)
 
loads of people
no-one saying much - most comments were of the 'er....it does have a short bill and it is small.

It might be SBC, but the structure of the thing looked all wrong, today at least. I know a few folks who've seen SBC and they all reckon the posture and manner is wrong plus the bill structure/shape is not right. And behaviour too.....no fast running as SBC do/did. No neck stretching/standing very upright. Might be due to different conditions though? Looked big for SBC (I think the Druridge bird was at the big end too?) When I look at my sketch it says Curlew.

The cap/lores were not unusual to my eyes for a Curlew - see BB 95 (6) PLate 171, 172, 173, and 174 show almost the opposite in fact with SBC being pale-lored cf the curlew in 171. Crown didn't look particularly flat either.....and plate 188 shows a Eurasian with white axillaries.

small amount of pink on lower mandible too

Best thing in its favour for me is that it did appear to lack any flank chevrons/transverse bars....interesting.
 
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Tim Allwood said:
"bill structure, posture and behaviour not at all convincing. we couldn't notice the features as ground roller states above either. Underwing was very pale though"

"As i mentioned above, it is possible that it has some SBC genes in it. I don't know, but could these sushkini curlews be the product of the last few SBCs pairing with Eurasian? The last Spix's Macaw paired up with a Blue-faced Macaw and wouldn't have anything to do with a released female Spix's
"

How could you not see those feature, most of them are even visible in the (poor) photos on surfbirds and birdguides!

From my understanding sushkini are also inseperable from orientalis, and have measurement between arquata and orientalis (thus, if anything, being bigger than an average British Curlew!). Also, if you did a little reading, you would find that sushkini is NOT a small curlew (cf. BB95: 297-298).

I know several very methodical british birders (some whom specialise in 'difficult groups' who now consider the bird to most likely be a SBC. Furthermore, i notice nobody in the Eurasian 'camp' actually explaining WHY it is a Eurasian!!
 
Tim Allwood said:
Looked big for SBC (I think the Druridge bird was at the big end too?).

Actually, the Duridge bird was on the smallest end of Slender-billed scale, and this was only discovered after alot of research was done by the people assessing the record.

The thing to bear in mind with juvenile SBC is that - NOBODY has seen one well or photographed one well in a very long time. Most of the limited current knowledge only came to light during the post-Duridge bird studies.
 
no need to get patronising!

it's just an idea....

sushkini are more or less unknown.....it 'might' have a relatively short bill - there is NO information on its bill structure, does have pale axillaries etc.

Relax and don't get on my case Mark - not saying it is or isnt - just not convinced. You're starting to sound desparate for a tick mate..... ;)

all the best
Timmo
 
marklhawkes said:
Actually, the Duridge bird was on the smallest end of Slender-billed scale, and this was only discovered after alot of research was done by the people assessing the record.

The thing to bear in mind with juvenile SBC is that - NOBODY has seen one well or photographed one well in a very long time. Most of the limited current knowledge only came to light during the post-Duridge bird studies.

Jimmy Steele's report said that if the bird was SBC it was towards the upper end of the known size range

reckon we've nailed that one now? It was a big un ;)
 
Tim Allwood said:
Relax and don't get on my case Mark - not saying it is or isnt - just not convinced. You're starting to sound desparate for a tick mate..... ;)

all the best
Timmo

Not at all desperate for a tick - just some what amazed that so many people have got comments to make, but have done little researching on the subject before passing comments. If it is a Eurasian, then it toally changes the known parameters of the species. If it is a SBC then it fits the known current critiria. I havn't come to a solid conclusion myself, and still have some doubts, but i would say a lean towards SBC, and whilst watching the bird on Thurs considered that if it was one, it was most likely a 1st-winter female.

Heres hoping for a concrete conclusion (but fully accepting that one probably won't be fast coming!)
 
just a thought.. having never seen SBC or video of one feeding, but I do reckon I can ID Whimbrel at a mile without optics based soley on different feeding action than Curlew...

I gather this bird moves and feeds exactly like a Eurasian Curlew ..... I would expect there to be some difference.
 
Grousemore said:
Why didn't you use your renowned fieldcraft to get nearer to the bird and take some decent pics, Tim ;)

stop baiting me Trev
you know i never bite...... :flowers:

little research eh Mark? Did you miss the bit on size in your research then?
 
Tim Allwood said:
Jimmy Steele's report said that if the bird was SBC it was towards the upper end of the known size rangeQUOTE]

I stand corrected. I was confusing myself with the fact that it was considered to be to be a small billed SBC - opps!
 
Jane Turner said:
I gather this bird moves and feeds exactly like a Eurasian Curlew ..... I would expect there to be some difference.

People have commented that it may have fed in a faster manner than Eurasian (comments also made about the Duridge bird), and this was evident on the short-video clip on BBC news on Friday, however this feature was considered of little use on the Duridge bird.
 
Faster is of course likely to be a function of being smaller.. which no one is arguing it is... little Dunlin move faster than big ones.. but the all move the same.
 
Jane Turner said:
just a thought.. having never seen SBC or video of one feeding, but I do reckon I can ID Whimbrel at a mile without optics based soley on different feeding action than Curlew...

I gather this bird moves and feeds exactly like a Eurasian Curlew ..... I would expect there to be some difference.


A mile no optics ,come off it................
 
Tim Allwood said:
It might be SBC, but the structure of the thing looked all wrong, today at least. ... And behaviour too.....no fast running as SBC do/did. No neck stretching/standing very upright. Might be due to different conditions though? .

The time it looked best to me was the one occaisain it did a fast run past several curlews. However usually showed very little posture/behaviorial differences from the Curlews it was with. At times feeding on its own, at other not. but i guess they were alll feeding on the same inverts in the same fields so perhaps likely to behave similar :h?:
 
One question for all the doubters of this bird.

Why is it a Eurasian Curlew ?

Size, bill shape, general coloration, under wing pattern all fall within the known parameters of SBC, so what makes it a Eurasian ?
 
Hi Mark,
mark spedding said:
One question for all the doubters of this bird.

Why is it a Eurasian Curlew ?

Size, bill shape, general coloration, under wing pattern all fall within the known parameters of SBC, so what makes it a Eurasian ?
While having some sympathy for your line of thought, it is surely more important to ask the question 'Why is it a Slender-billed Curlew?': after all, the onus should be on observers to prove that it is a SBC!
I'm certainly caught for an opinion on the bird (that's a new one!), as I have an understandable lack of experience of SBC, and just don't know what degree of variation is possible within Eurasian. In my opinion, the ID is so difficult that the extreme world rarity of the species doesn't even come into it really: were SBC a common species in its former range and a vagrant to Britain then it would still be a tough call...though I admit that if they were common, then more would be known about the identification of juv/1st-w birds....
Harry
 
I think the least convincing feature is the shape of the bill tip. The bill on this bird is short... but not especially thin at the tip - in fact it looks quite Whimbrel-like in that respect in the pictures
 
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