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Crossbills of south-east Scotland (1 Viewer)

Scarce Crossbill (Monynut Forest 26th Nov. 06).
This was a surprise. According to the Sound Approach this form has only been recorded in the Benelux countries, but no doubt travels far and wide like the rest. Only recorded once and that was just the excitement call, the flight calls were lost amongst loads of Parakeets and British Crossbills when the large flock took off.

At the risk of being a killjoy or smartarse again I think we will have to accept the SA's claim that 'scarce' thus far only been recorded on the continent !

This to me sounds like an EcB, but more like a 1B type, or parakeet if you prefer the SA. On my sonogram of your call below you can see that there is a faint note (subharmonic ?) at 2.4kHz followed by a strong note at 3.0kHz. There is then a faint harmonic at 3.5KHz and again at 4.5kHz. There is even a very faint harmonic at 5.0 khz on one of the calls. These harmonics give the call depth or body when we listen to it.

In SA the scarce only has a main note and a harmonic - perhaps the others (if they exist) have been filtered out. This makes the call sound quite high and thin.

However, pushing the 'grams aside for a moment, the real proof of the pudding is in the listening. If you compare your 'scarce' call with tracks 72 and tracks 83 in Sound Approach you will hear that your call sounds much more like 72, the parakeet crossbill, or 1B as I like to call them.

Sonograms, although very scientific in function, are much more of an artform in reading correctly - the aesthetic and the scientific meet if you like. In the end, your ears will never betray you.......

Lindsay
 

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At the risk of being a killjoy or smartarse again I think we will have to accept the SA's claim that 'scarce' thus far only been recorded on the continent !

This to me sounds like an EcB, but more like a 1B type, or parakeet if you prefer the SA. On my sonogram below you can see that there is a faint note (subharmonic ?) at 2.4kHz followed by a strong note at 3.0kHz. There is then a faint harmonic at 3.5KHz and again at 4.5kHz. There is even a very faint harmonic at 5.0 khz on one of the calls. These harmonics give the call depth or body when we listen to it.

In SA the scarce only has a main note and a harmonic - perhaps the others (if they exist) have been filtered out. This makes the call sound quite high and thin.

However, pushing the 'grams aside for a moment, the real proof of the pudding is in the listening. If you compare your 'scarce' call with tracks 72 and tracks 83 in Sound Approach you will hear that your call sounds much more like 72, the parakeet crossbill, or 1B as I like to call them.

Sonograms, although very scientific in function, are much more of an artform in reading correctly - the aesthetic and the scientific meet if you like. In the end, your ears will never betray you.......

Lindsay

This is all good teaching. :t:

Tell me is it sonogram or sonagram? I've seen it written both ways.

My initial id was 1B using SASLab lite. It was when I started using Raven to look through old wavs that I came across these bands with the beautiful arches above and thought :eek!:! thats a scarce. Totally missing the fainter stacked tower of bands characteristic of 1B Parakeet. I need to start double checking using my admittedly non-musical ears.

Please Sir, can I start this thread again? :-O:-O
 
My initial id was 1B using SASLab lite. It was when I started using Raven to look through old wavs that I came across these bands with the beautiful arches above and thought :eek!:! thats a scarce. Totally missing the fainter stacked tower of bands characteristic of 1B Parakeet. I need to start double checking using my admittedly non-musical ears.

Well you can keep using your eyes too ! In my post #21, the calls towards the right of the sonogram clearly show 3-4 harmonic bands above the main note. These pretty much match those for 1B.
 
Well you can keep using your eyes too !

They aint what they used to be youngster! ;)

Going back to your comments on the Fc1 or 4 above. I see where your coming from with the VV shape though the Summers paper (Ibis 2002) also has an Fc1 with a detached right-hand vertical component - (iii) on P.402.

I've come across quite a few of these birds recently with both Fcs and Ecs recorded. To me they don't sound like Fc4s and the Ecs look like EcAs rather than EcEs which is backed up by direct lug comparison with the SA recordings.
If they are Fc4s are they 4As?
Is there such a thing?

Anyway here's a few examples:

For the record the first was taken on Dec 15th 07 in Armet Forest, Soutra, Scottish Borders. The second was recorded the same place but on Dec 23rd 07.
 

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I've come across quite a few of these birds recently with both Fcs and Ecs recorded. To me they don't sound like Fc4s and the Ecs look like EcAs rather than EcEs which is backed up by direct lug comparison with the SA recordings.

Do you know for certain that you have the SAME bird giving a Ec and corresponding Fc ? In your sonogram above ( on the left) the bird giving the Fc is NOT the same bird that is giving the Ec (the calls overlap) - there are 3 different birds in your sonogram.
 
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Hi Sandy,

The one on the left looks \/\/ to me so I would consider Fc4 ?

Lindsay

This was my carefully worded comment !

It depends on how you classify your calls - by ear, sonogram (structure) or a combination. One thing I can say is that your calls are not the Fc1iii's that you make reference to - I have recorded several of these and they look much stumpier in general and sound quite different.

Do you remember a post on my blog before someone hacked in and deleted all my posts I had a really interesting 'article' on 'Parroty' Common calls ? The calls in your most recent example sound very much like this type in my opinion - they have the same scale and also lack the obvious initial downward component. However,the 'British' calls in your first post DO have an obvious initial downward component so to my mind are different from the ones above. Also, the trailing component ( or possibly element as you are arguing) doesn't point straight up, but rather tails off to the right at an angle ( ala Fc4), though I admit this difference is subtle. They sound to me part way between Fc4 and those choopy Common calls from your recent post.

However, this does not explain the apparent second element in your most recent examples. If we were following the RSPB nomenclature to the letter then it is a Fc3, a up-down-extra element eg. '\' - however, before you get excited it is NOT a Scottish ! Although I have my own ideas as to what it is, I will leave this one for you to classify - it is your call after all, and anyway I have a whole bunch of my own calls to analyze and categorize without having to do everyone elses for them ! However, in this instance I felt obliged to post my comments as I felt that the initial appraisals of a couple of the calls may have been potentially misleading for someone using this thread as reference material. I think what we are seeing here, and in some other threads, is that identifying crossbill calls are not necessarily 'a walk in the park', even with (good) sonograms.

An important technical note, some components can be faint, incomplete or missing entirely depending on quality of equipment, distance and atmospheric conditions.

Lindsay
 
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Do you know for certain that you have the SAME bird giving a Ec and corresponding Fc ? In your sonogram above ( on the left) the bird giving the Fc is NOT the same bird that is giving the Ec (the calls overlap) - there are 3 different birds in your sonogram.

I'll be brief cos I'm actually at work.
There was actually 5 birds circling round in a little flock after a sprawk spooked them. When they quit tooping they all sounded much the same at least to my ears. Very subjective I know so disregard it. As I've said before I don't have musicians ears. There was an interesting little 'Peent' call from one of them. Do you know the nature of this call?
 
This was my carefully worded comment !

It depends on how you classify your calls - by ear, sonogram (structure) or a combination. One thing I can say is that your calls are not the Fc1iii's that you make reference to - I have recorded several of these and they look much stumpier in general and sound quite different.

Do you remember a post on my blog before someone hacked in and deleted all my posts I had a really interesting 'article' on 'Parroty' Common calls ? The calls in your most recent example sound very much like this type in my opinion - they have the same scale and also lack the obvious initial downward component. However,the 'British' calls in your first post DO have an obvious initial downward component so to my mind are different from the ones above. Also, the trailing component ( or possibly element as you are arguing) doesn't point straight up, but rather tails off to the right at an angle ( ala Fc4), though I admit this difference is subtle. They sound to me part way between Fc4 and those choopy Common calls from your recent post.

However, this does not explain the apparent second element in your most recent examples. If we were following the RSPB nomenclature to the letter then it is a Fc3, a down-up-extra element eg. '\' - however, before you get excited it is NOT a Scottish ! Although I have my own ideas as to what it is, I will leave this one for you to classify - it is your call after all, and anyway I have a whole bunch of my own calls to analyze and categorize without having to do everyone elses for them ! However, in this instance I felt obliged to post my comments as I felt that the initial appraisals of a couple of the calls may have been potentially misleading for someone using this thread as reference material. I think what we are seeing here, and in some other threads, is that identifying crossbill calls are not necessarily 'a walk in the park', even with (good) sonograms.

An important technical note, some components can be faint, incomplete or missing entirely depending on quality of equipment, distance and atmospheric conditions.

Lindsay

Thanks Griffin,
This is exactly the response I wanted!
More later when I'm not busy.
 
Here's the files I posted earlier with any errors fixed:
 

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And these:
 

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  • 'British' or 1A Crossbill excitement calls.MP3
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and finally:
 

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When I started this thread I hoped to create a bit more interest and stimulate a bit of debate. I had a few nagging doubts about some of the recordings but was willing to stick my neck out and risk looking foolish. With Griffins correction of some of my errors and his detailed responses I hope I've manage to highlight some of the potential pitfalls inherent in studying crossbill sounds.
 
Do you remember a post on my blog before someone hacked in and deleted all my posts I had a really interesting 'article' on 'Parroty' Common calls ? The calls in your most recent example sound very much like this type in my opinion - they have the same scale and also lack the obvious initial downward component. However,the 'British' calls in your first post DO have an obvious initial downward component so to my mind are different from the ones above. Also, the trailing component ( or possibly element as you are arguing) doesn't point straight up, but rather tails off to the right at an angle ( ala Fc4), though I admit this difference is subtle. They sound to me part way between Fc4 and those choopy Common calls from your recent post.

Lindsay

I only recently discovered your blog through a friend. I was just getting into it when it disappeared and I thought maybe you'd pulled the plug.
I see from your post that you reckon it was personal rather than the work of some random moron. If you find out who it was let me know so I can get medieval on their a*ses. :-O
 
This seems to have turned into a two-man thread.

message 18: Nice sounds and gram Capercaillie :t:

Birdspotter: any luck in the Pentlands yesterday?
 
This seems to have turned into a two-man thread.


I'm still lurking! It's been an interesting and informative thread although it's a steep learning curve! I just wish I had more time to get out and make more recordings - I'd probably learn faster. Up until now I've just concentrated on my local woods, but I think I probably need to go further afield to experience a wider range of calls.

I might go and resurrect my own recent crossbill thread.
 
I'm still lurking! It's been an interesting and informative thread although it's a steep learning curve! I just wish I had more time to get out and make more recordings - I'd probably learn faster. Up until now I've just concentrated on my local woods, but I think I probably need to go further afield to experience a wider range of calls.

I might go and resurrect my own recent crossbill thread.

Oh aye, the one with all the 'scrapping'. ;)

There never seems to be enough time. Or the weathers crap. I've just got a couple of days off and it feels like I'm coming down with a cold. Rats!! The missus'll be happy though. I'll be stuck at home doing all the domestic chores while she's out at work. A much better use of my time than chasing birds she reckons. Oh well.
 
This seems to have turned into a two-man thread.

message 18: Nice sounds and gram Capercaillie :t:

Birdspotter: any luck in the Pentlands yesterday?


It was a weekend spent birding i'm afraid, rather than sound recording, but don't worry I am very near to completing my first sonagram which I will post soon!!
Not 100% sure what it is mind, but at least it's a start:t:
 
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