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Unofficial "Alphas" (2 Viewers)

And to be not so subtle about the point, for me, they are not unofficially alphas either.

--AP


Alexis:

I do not think anything China made has come close to some standards mentioned above, as being an "Alpha".
Quality comes first, and other things follow.

Tell us more.

Jerry
 
I used my first sample 6x30 Fuji as a finder bin for my telescope and for 8.5* WF sweeps of the night sky. With steadily increasing light pollution and clouds and longer and longer trips to dark sites, I sold both scope and bins.

I missed the views of the 6x30 Fuji and when one came up for sale on ebay, I fought a bidding war and won. Paid about $100 more than I did for my first sample, but the first was purchased before the bin was discontinued and became a "cult classic".

I bought the second sample for general use and for feeder birding. So no, I don't jest, surely. When it comes to raw optics, the Fuji FMT series and the 6x30 model in particular stands shoulder to shoulder with much pricey roofs. If you tried one and could overcome your pre-judgement, you might agree about their optical quality.

If not for my waning focus accommodation, which made for more frequent focusing than when I had my first sample 10 years earlier, I'd have kept it for general use, feeder birding, and as a reference standard.

Fuji FMTs are not bins for snobs. Neither are SEs or EIIs, a point which you proved nicely.

Brock
 
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What binoculars that are not made by Zeiss/Leica/Swarovski/Nikon EDG II, i.e., "Alphas", do you consider to have a comparable optical quality to the "alphas"?

The original question was about optical quality. Not build quality or ergonomics. Other than Alexis's specific comment regarding chasing sparrows in the brush I haven't really seen anything concrete to clarify why some of the higher performing Chinese binoculars don't compare with the Alphas. Stray light control? Off axis performance?

Please clarify this issue.
 
The original question was about optical quality. Not build quality or ergonomics. Other than Alexis's specific comment regarding chasing sparrows in the brush I haven't really seen anything concrete to clarify why some of the higher performing Chinese binoculars don't compare with the Alphas. Stray light control? Off axis performance?

Please clarify this issue.

Frank:

I will offer one, and that is the Nikon SE 8x32, and it may not be considered
among the main alphas, as it is an alpha binocular, considering its great
build, and I find the optics to be very good, comparing to some of the
alphas, including stray light handling, it is the equal or better than the Nikon EDG 8x32, and the great edg performance makes it a top performer. I do find it much like the Swaro. 8.5x42 SV, as these all have many great advantages.

I am wondering about any of the Chinese built types that you would think
to be included in this area. I have tried some, and have not found much that
do not get into this area. I do like centerfield performance.

What is there that would be of notice?

Jerry
 
I personally haven't used any non-alpha roofs that match an alpha roof optically. I often use a Nikon 8x30 E11 and all three versions of the SE and the views are definitely alpha quality. I'm also guilty of using two of my IF porros, 7x50 Prostar and 10x50 Fuji FMTR-SX, for watching birds at the feeder. Both of these IF binos offer alpha level optical performance.

Steve
 
I would agree that the Fujinon FMTR-SX series are alpha quality,
but question with IF and weight if they are really birding binoculars,
they are astronomy/marine binoculars.

edj
 
Frank:

I will offer one, and that is the Nikon SE 8x32, and it may not be considered
among the main alphas, as it is an alpha binocular, considering its great
build, and I find the optics to be very good, comparing to some of the
alphas, including stray light handling, it is the equal or better than the Nikon EDG 8x32, and the great edg performance makes it a top performer. I do find it much like the Swaro. 8.5x42 SV, as these all have many great advantages.

I am wondering about any of the Chinese built types that you would think
to be included in this area. I have tried some, and have not found much that
do not get into this area. I do like centerfield performance.

What is there that would be of notice?

Jerry

Jerry,

Before I respond to your question I want to take the opportunity to relate that I am not being confrontational in any way with my comments on this subject. You and I have had some differences of opinion on this issue in the past and I recognize that fact. What I am trying to determine here is exactly what separates some of the highest performing Chinese bins from their European and Japanese counterparts. As I quoted in my previous post the original poster is asking specifically about optical performance and not build quality or quality control in general. In reference to that specific issue though I will concede that quality control is better with the Alpha products. For the sake of this discussion though lets assume that we are comparing a product with good quality control from both areas of manufacture.

My question then is, what separates some of these ED Chinese bins optically from the Alpha binoculars?

Two issues that have been discussed in the past are stray light control and off axis performance. The stray light control issue is a valid one as there are some ED Chinese binoculars that have presented less than perfect performance in this area. Not all of them though and not necessarily in all of the configurations of a given model.

The issue of off axis performance/size of the sweet spot/edge performance is always an interesting one to discuss. I know that you are fond of binoculars such as the Nikon SE, EDG and Swarovision. They all display large sweetspots with very good edge performance. I will concede that in this optical performance area there aren't any Chinese ED bins that compare. That may change as soon as the new ED/Field flattener models from both Hawke and Zen Ray hit the market. I cannot say as I have not handled either model.

If we consider the other Alpha models currently on the market (or recently on the market) such as the Swaro EL, SLC, Leica Ultravid (and HD), Trinovid, Zeiss FL, etc... then is the comparison valid? Both of the Swaro models did have large sweet spots though not quite as good as the the three mentioned in the previous paragraph. All three of the Leica models are excellent optically. Their sweet spots are also above average but not as good as the three mentioned in the previous paragraph. The Zeiss is also considered an alpha bin because of its excellent centerfield performance, bright overall image and excellent CA control. Sweet spot size and edge performance are not often quoted as favorably with this model though. Based on what it appears are your preferences then would you still consider the Zeiss an Alpha model?

If the answer is "yes" then I would be curious how you would discount the ZR ED3 model? It doesn't have as large of a sweet spot as any of the Leica, Nikon or Swaro offerings but I would suggest that it is comparable to the Zeiss. Its strongpoints are also those of the Zeiss...excellent centerfield apparent sharpness, a bright image, good contrast and excellent CA control. Of course I don't think you can ignore the fact that it offers a wider true field of view than any of the other Alpha offerings. Does that count towards its overall optical quality level?

I am keying in on the ZR in this case simply because I prefer it to the two other Chinese models that Steve mentioned in his post. I feel all three are above average in optical performance but the ED3 combines the specific optical attributes that I tend to prefer from my binoculars.

I have spent a great deal of time comparing various Chinese optics with European and Japanese models. As I mentioned previously quality control isn't as good but when you find a good unit then the optical performance comparison can be quite interesting.

So I would again pose the question, strictly speaking from an optical performance perspective, what do you feel separates the best of the Chinese ED bins from the European/Japanese models collectively?
 
Original poster here.
I do not have a pair of "Chinese" binoculars, apart from my little Leupold Yosemite 8x30 BX-1. So, i cannot comment directly on "Chinese" binocular optical quality vs that of the Teutonic Trinity and Nikon's Japanese production.
However, a story from the world of amateur astronomy.
Back in the 1990's and before, APO (apochromatic) refractors were considered the sole provenance of Japan, the United States and Germany.
Then, early in the last decade, Orion Telescopes introduced the "Orion 80ED". It was a an 80mm f/7.5 refractor of Chinese manufacture. No less than the "official" ;) authority, Sky & Telescope Magazine, pronounced it an APO.
Now, the majority of APO refractors are carrying Chinese optics.
The original 80ED left much to be desired mechanically. And, quality control was somewhere below ok ;)
The moral of the story is this. Chinese manufacture of optical elements certainly will match the "alphas" in quality, if some have not already, someday. The total quality of manufacture and assembly of the optical train/assembly will lag behind, but eventually improve to a high standard. Fit and feel will lag even longer, but it too will advance.
 
Original poster here.
I do not have a pair of "Chinese" binoculars, apart from my little Leupold Yosemite 8x30 BX-1. So, i cannot comment directly on "Chinese" binocular optical quality vs that of the Teutonic Trinity and Nikon's Japanese production.
However, a story from the world of amateur astronomy.
Back in the 1990's and before, APO (apochromatic) refractors were considered the sole provenance of Japan, the United States and Germany.
Then, early in the last decade, Orion Telescopes introduced the "Orion 80ED". It was a an 80mm f/7.5 refractor of Chinese manufacture. No less than the "official" ;) authority, Sky & Telescope Magazine, pronounced it an APO.
Now, the majority of APO refractors are carrying Chinese optics.
The original 80ED left much to be desired mechanically. And, quality control was somewhere below ok ;)
The moral of the story is this. Chinese manufacture of optical elements certainly will match the "alphas" in quality, if some have not already, someday. The total quality of manufacture and assembly of the optical train/assembly will lag behind, but eventually improve to a high standard. Fit and feel will lag even longer, but it too will advance.

As the OP aren't you the fella who asked for opinions based on actual use? ;) This post and the ones above from Jerry are why I posted that this could get interesting as it develops. Asking a question based on an undefinible ideal is bound to get interesting, as everybody will have lots of different opinions.

For the record, neither Frank or I, or for that matter Kevin Purcell (by the way anybody know what became of Kevin?) ever claimed these were alpha equals. That never stopped the alpha defense from going on the offense either.
 
It seems that I read too much into "for birding" specification of the original post. I thought the query was about whether there are any non-alpha branded birding bins with the same level of birding capability, with special emphasis on uncompromising optical performance. For me, the ergonomics/mechanical issues that allow for very quickly obtaining a good view at highly variable distances are inherent to what it means to be a birding binocular as compared to a hunting, astro, military, or yachting bin. The ideal birding bin is the one that allows you to get your eyes on a raptor that is momentarily visible through a rear passenger side window, and which delivers that view even though you are looking sideways through the oculars (slight exaggeration :), holding the bin one handed, and are contorted into an almost up-side-down position in order to get the needed viewing angle, all the while speeding down a county highway from one spot to another in the course of a big day effort.

If the question wasn't really about birding specific functionality, it should have been asked as "are there any current production mid or full-sized bins with absolutely top-end optical performance not made by Z/L/S/N, or else made by those brands but not as expensive (e.g. Nikon SE) as their top-priced models?"

Brock, I'm familiar with the Fuji bins and I know they are optically stunning. My comment hinged on their status as a birding binocular as I define it. No IF bin cuts it for general birding use--definitely not a contender for alpha status. I reject the Fuji for the same reason that I reject the Nikon SE and EII with their slow center focus--they aren't as likely to deliver that view of the hawk out my car window as, say, the Zeiss 7x42 Classic or FL.

Frank, as for the Zen Ray ED3, they're the closest I've seen. I've heard conflicting reports as to whether the latest production have stiff focus in the cold. What's the word on that?

--AP
 
The ideal birding bin is the one that allows you to get your eyes on a raptor that is momentarily visible through a rear passenger side window, and which delivers that view even though you are looking sideways through the oculars (slight exaggeration :), holding the bin one handed, and are contorted into an almost up-side-down position in order to get the needed viewing angle, all the while speeding down a county highway from one spot to another in the course of a big day effort.

no offense, but you keep repeating this as though it's a priori true that the "alphas" are better at this stuff than non alphas, but I don't actually see any evidence that it is the case. WTF is so special about the alphas that lets you get on a bird quicker while hanging upside down from a tree branch with one arm tied behind your back exactly???

Obviously there are some alphas that are renowned for their ergonomics (some people swear by the old Lieca Trinnies, others love the Swaro open bridge, etc) but among non-alphas there is as much (if not more) variation in size, physical design, focus speed, focus knob tension, etc. I am simply not buying that the alphas as a class are in some way magically superior in this respect to all non-alphas.
 
no offense, but you keep repeating this as though it's a priori true that the "alphas" are better at this stuff than non alphas, but I don't actually see any evidence that it is the case. WTF is so special about the alphas that lets you get on a bird quicker while hanging upside down from a tree branch with one arm tied behind your back exactly???

Obviously there are some alphas that are renowned for their ergonomics (some people swear by the old Lieca Trinnies, others love the Swaro open bridge, etc) but among non-alphas there is as much (if not more) variation in size, physical design, focus speed, focus knob tension, etc. I am simply not buying that the alphas as a class are in some way magically superior in this respect to all non-alphas.

Do you have a suggestion of one I should try? I've tried a lot of bins, bought a lot of bins at all price levels, and so far, it is my experience that the top brands are tops in performance, and that top performance is what ultimately maintains their "top brand" status and prestige.

Not all alpha-branded bins are alpha birding bins, but some of the basic requirements are fast precise focus that doesn't stiffen in the cold, ease of eye placement, good hang and ergonomics so they maintain a reliable position on one's person while tromping about and can be ready and quickly grabbed and set to eyes without need to remove anti-sway harnesses etc, excellent optics (especially critical is stray light control to allow best possible view with strong backlighting), optics that are so easy on the eyes they can be used for many hours each day without any strain, and these days hydro and lipophobic coatings to help keep lenses clean without ocular guards and such that get in the way.

The requirement that the focus not stiffen in the cold eliminates 99% of non-alphas in my experience, which is a sad situation because multiviscosity grease shouldn't be much of a design/manufacturing hurdle.

--AP
 
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no offense, but you keep repeating this as though it's a priori true that the "alphas" are better at this stuff than non alphas, but I don't actually see any evidence that it is the case. WTF is so special about the alphas that lets you get on a bird quicker while hanging upside down from a tree branch with one arm tied behind your back exactly???

Obviously there are some alphas that are renowned for their ergonomics (some people swear by the old Lieca Trinnies, others love the Swaro open bridge, etc) but among non-alphas there is as much (if not more) variation in size, physical design, focus speed, focus knob tension, etc. I am simply not buying that the alphas as a class are in some way magically superior in this respect to all non-alphas.

I think you are missing Alexis' point here, although he would be the best person to clear this up.

He is saying that all these great bins, like the Prostars, Fuji's etc., that are inherently astronomy bins, cannot be included in any list of alpha-birding glass, as they are not ergonomically suited. Just like any bin that isn't waterproof or doesn't work well in the cold or that has hopelessly slow-geared focus.

As Alexis said, any feature such as IF eyepieces, too-slow focus, too big / too heavy or other ergo failures should [for most of us] render such a bin not fit for the task.

I don't think he is implying that an 'alpha' is better at ergonomics, but to ''be alpha'', the ergonomics must be right, just as the view must be right.

EDIT - too late!
 
...If the question wasn't really about birding specific functionality, it should have been asked as "are there any current production mid or full-sized bins with absolutely top-end optical performance not made by Z/L/S/N,....

You are correct, the above would have been a better way to ask.

However, the original question does not refer to "birding" specifically. Birding i believe refers to the pastime of identifying birds.

From the original post:
"the purpose of the use should be for handheld looking at birds."

For example, early this a.m. i was out checking on my most local group of crows. Checking for feather damage, iding what they were snacking on etc. I was "watching birds", but few would call that birding.
 
You are correct, the above would have been a better way to ask.

However, the original question does not refer to "birding" specifically. Birding i believe refers to the pastime of identifying birds.

From the original post:
"the purpose of the use should be for handheld looking at birds."

For example, early this a.m. i was out checking on my most local group of crows. Checking for feather damage, iding what they were snacking on etc. I was "watching birds", but few would call that birding.

To own an alpha, or near alpha, and to only use it to ''look at birds'' is just a waste of money. I think most of us here will be using our bins for birding most of the time, ''looking at birds'' from time to time.

And we will do it outside, in the heat / cold / wet / etc. And we will need bins up to the task.
 
To own an alpha, or near alpha, and to only use it to ''look at birds'' is just a waste of money. ...

Interesting.

I of course will try to ID a bird I do not recall seeing before

But, animal behavior study is my hobby. The Common, or american Crow my primary subject.

I need to be able to discern slight differences in shading, and interior mouth color, from a distance, to reinforce my aging of them from their behavior. And, I need to ID any birds or other creatures the crows are interacting with. Often, i need to discern what they are eating or playing with. At times I have starred through my binos for a 1/2 an hour or more without let up. Therefore, I do need very finely made optics so as not to get a headache. And, as you can imagine, this occurs in all weather/seasons/conditions.

I am glad you told me this. I can ignore the current production alphas. :t:
 
Interesting.

I of course will try to ID a bird I do not recall seeing before

But, animal behavior study is my hobby. The Common, or american Crow my primary subject.

I need to be able to discern slight differences in shading, and interior mouth color, from a distance, to reinforce my aging of them from their behavior. And, I need to ID any birds or other creatures the crows are interacting with. Often, i need to discern what they are eating or playing with. At times I have starred through my binos for a 1/2 an hour or more without let up. Therefore, I do need very finely made optics so as not to get a headache. And, as you can imagine, this occurs in all weather/seasons/conditions.

I am glad you told me this. I can ignore the current production alphas. :t:

I think, for you, a scope would be best.;)
 
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