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Gray or Cocoi Heron ID - Trinidad (1 Viewer)

johnallcock said:
I agree that it's definitely not Grey/Gray. This conclusion isn't based on likelihood, but based on the appearance of the bird and familiarity with Grey Heron. (It's interesting that most comments saying it's not Grey are from European birders, who are also probably familiar with Grey).

For me, the main factor against Grey is the head pattern. I don't think Grey would ever show such an extensively black crown reaching as far as the bill, or show the streaked forecrown present on this bird. Adult Grey has a fully white crown with the black streak terminating above the eye, not reaching the bill. Juvenile Grey shows an extensively grey crown, much paler than on your bird. Older immatures would be intermediate, but still not show black extending as far as the bill. The black also seems to extend low onto the sides of the head behind the eye, compared to a typical Grey Heron.

Supplemental features that look odd for Grey are an apparently heavy bill and what look to me like very dark (blackish) legs on the flight photos (I can't see the legs as being yellow, as you suggested in the original post).

I am not at all familiar with Cocoi, so can't really comment much on that ID, but from online photos that looks better to me than Grey.
Click to expand...

Yes, European birders see Grey Herons daily or very often, and there is never one like this. Head pattern is the most obvious, as the shape of head/bill, and other details in the plumage.

On my side, I spent most of last year in Colombia and have seen many Cocoi Herons. The op bird has nothing against being one. We have excluded Great Blue so the case is settled.
 
johnallcock said:
I agree that it's definitely not Grey/Gray. This conclusion isn't based on likelihood, but based on the appearance of the bird and familiarity with Grey Heron. (It's interesting that most comments saying it's not Grey are from European birders, who are also probably familiar with Grey).

For me, the main factor against Grey is the head pattern. I don't think Grey would ever show such an extensively black crown reaching as far as the bill, or show the streaked forecrown present on this bird. Adult Grey has a fully white crown with the black streak terminating above the eye, not reaching the bill. Juvenile Grey shows an extensively grey crown, much paler than on your bird. Older immatures would be intermediate, but still not show black extending as far as the bill. The black also seems to extend low onto the sides of the head behind the eye, compared to a typical Grey Heron.

Supplemental features that look odd for Grey are an apparently heavy bill and what look to me like very dark (blackish) legs on the flight photos (I can't see the legs as being yellow, as you suggested in the original post).

I am not at all familiar with Cocoi, so can't really comment much on that ID, but from online photos that looks better to me than Grey.
Click to expand...

Was thinking overnight what more I could add, but John's expressed it all much better than I could :t:

Of saying it isn't Cocoi because it is small, worth remembering that all herons have quite a wide range of size variation; on published length measurements, a big Grey (90-98 cm) can be taller than a small Cocoi (95-127 cm).
 
bugmat said:
Funnily enough a veteran birder and I saw another sub-adult Gray heron today - looked just like this bird but was dry instead of soaked (also attached). I suspect it is the same bird as has been noted they are rare, but not accidental here.
Click to expand...

Once again, this doesn't look like a Grey Heron. Too dark, 'dirty' grey, legs too black, and too much black on the crown.
 
If I saw this in the field I would not suspect it to be other than Cocoi, to be honest.

Perhaps this is worth posting to the FB group Advanced Bird ID.
 
Bugmat, take a look at eBird for Trinidad, existing records of Gray Heron. There are many photos of juvenile Gray Herons in lists for Trinidad to compare.
 
pbjosh said:
Bugmat, take a look at eBird for Trinidad, existing records of Gray Heron. There are many photos of juvenile Gray Herons in lists for Trinidad to compare.
Click to expand...

Yes - I've seen juvenile gray herons before myself here (see attached), but I was leaning with the expert views here/locally (which if course can be wrong as is the sentiment here) and the fact this bird isn't a juvenile but also isn't an adult, and is more sub-adult so could look very different.

The reasoning at the start of the thread for 100% dismissing gray heron was not convincing or clear with comments calling it a great blue (which is clear it's not) and discounting size, which though ranges will overlap, generally leans towards grey.

If you say structurally this bird is not a gray heron wrt shape of the head etc that is a clearer answer - the comments included was the beak was too heavy (it didn't appear that way to me but I can concede it is probably bigger than the typical gray heron) and cap too black (despite the clear white streaking), but that doesn't discount a bird having a heavier than usual bill etc.

Anyway as I said I will leave it to the experts here who have a judgement system in place - no real vested interest as I've seen adult gray herons before (in South Africa) so it's not a life(r) or death situation :D

Thanks again for the comments.
 

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bugmat said:
Yes - I've seen juvenile gray herons before myself here (see attached), but I was leaning with the expert views here/locally (which if course can be wrong as is the sentiment here) and the fact this bird isn't a juvenile but also isn't an adult, and is more sub-adult so could look very different.

The reasoning at the start of the thread for 100% dismissing gray heron was not convincing or clear with comments calling it a great blue (which is clear it's not) and discounting size, which though ranges will overlap, generally leans towards grey.

If you say structurally this bird is not a gray heron wrt shape of the head etc that is a clearer answer - the comments included was the beak was too heavy (it didn't appear that way to me but I can concede it is probably bigger than the typical gray heron) and cap too black (despite the clear white streaking), but that doesn't discount a bird having a heavier than usual bill etc.

Anyway as I said I will leave it to the experts here who have a judgement system in place - no real vested interest as I've seen adult gray herons before (in South Africa) so it's not a life(r) or death situation :D

Thanks again for the comments.
Click to expand...

For people living in Europe, it is obvious that your bird is not a (European) Grey Heron and immediately rings the bell for one of the American grey species (Cocoi and Great Blue are very close and were considered as the same species as recalled in HBW alive).

I identify on this forum American birds without field guides, I'm now working on Asian birds and cannot have all field guides in hand. As I saw a bunch of Grey Heron from Europe, Asia and Africa, I wanted to make sure since the start that you can exclude confidently Grey and avoid long discussion about it. Obviously it failed because you want us to confirm your initial identification, what no European will do.

The plumage exclude immediately Grey Heron, and the structure, despite your impression of little size that is not reliable (not because of you, size is very difficult to judge), is clearly the one of large and powerful New World Ardea.

With field guide or best memory, Nutcracker informed us the plumage excludes Great Blue, so the case should be settled by now.
 
AlinoVegano said:
For people living in Europe, it is obvious that your bird is not a (European) Grey Heron and immediately rings the bell for one of the American grey species

... you want us to confirm your initial identification, what no European will do.
.
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I think you are perhaps being a little too sure of yourself - not saying this is a Grey Heron at all, but I think you will find many in Europe that would struggle to distinguish between Cocoi and Grey Herons, especially immatures.
 
Jos Stratford said:
I think you are perhaps being a little too sure of yourself - not saying this is a Grey Heron at all, but I think you will find many in Europe that would struggle to distinguish between Cocoi and Grey Herons, especially immatures.
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You are right, my sentence is wrong. I mean all experienced European birders will see that op bird is not a regular Grey Heron.
 
bugmat said:
... I've seen adult gray herons before (in South Africa) so it's not a life(r) or death situation :D
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No you haven't, you saw Grey Herons in South Africa (and yes, I just checked my S Africa field guide). No such thing as a "gray heron" outside of the minds of US imperialists ;)
 
Nutcracker said:
No you haven't, you saw Grey Herons in South Africa (and yes, I just checked my S Africa field guide). No such thing as a "gray heron" outside of the minds of US imperialists ;)
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Well I use eBird and it won't let me use "grey" so... I'm English-speaking but the taskmasters here say I got to use gray! I've given up and settled fo rbeing brainwashed.
 
...Also note that it's Grey and Great Blue which have been (are still by some?) considered conspecific, not Great Blue and Cocoi.
 
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