Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (3 Viewers)

MMinNY · Sep 12, 2006

Well, the thing that I found interesting is that Lewis's buddies didn't seem to think it was a terribly big deal. . .and I don't think the others even bothered to report it. Not saying this to excuse or absolve anyone. It was the matter-of-factness that struck me.

cinclodes said:
It's really quite simple. Birders, in all their arrogance and sloth, failed to document the species while rountinely dismissing reports from those who saw it.

choupique1 · Sep 12, 2006

MMinNY said:
Well, the thing that I found interesting is that Lewis's buddies didn't seem to think it was a terribly big deal. . .and I don't think the others even bothered to report it. Not saying this to excuse or absolve anyone. It was the matter-of-factness that struck me.

because... guys that spend a lot of time.....in the right areas..... see and have seen the bird for years.....but.. these folks aren't birders....

humminbird · Sep 13, 2006

kyanite said:
But quite seriously it may be inevitable that H5N1 avian influenza will soon show up in waterfowl in the Mississippi flyway and Gulf coast... does anyone know if picidae are particularly susceptible to it? or to West Nile?

What makes you point to these areas when CDC, National Audubon, FWS and others all say the first indication we will get of Bird Flu in North America will be in Alaska, or Labrador since that is where birds share a common range with some birds from Eurasia?

humminbird · Sep 13, 2006

choupique1 said:
because... guys that spend a lot of time.....in the right areas..... see and have seen the bird for years.....but.. these folks aren't birders....

I tend to agree Chou... amazing how the opinion changes in certain situations though... like after talking with someone from the Cornell team... have seen this first hand with several well known Texas birders.

kyanite · Sep 13, 2006

humminbird said:
What makes you point to these areas when CDC, National Audubon, FWS and others all say the first indication we will get of Bird Flu in North America will be in Alaska, or Labrador since that is where birds share a common range with some birds from Eurasia?

I certainly didn't mean that the Mississippi flyway or Gulf coast would be the initial points of entry, only that they can be expected eventually to receive concentrations of infected birds, apologies if I was unclear about that.

After the virus enters North America, either from migratory birds at the expected places or by importation of infected captives, the normal spread through North America along flyways would lead to large die-offs of infected waterfowl in migratory and wintering grounds. Waterfowl are the main vectors but avian influenza affects a broad range of birds, though I can't find anything about woodpeckers and their susceptibility. Just a nagging thought, every time I hear about all the ducks in IBWO habitat.

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/world/05/bird_flu_map/html/1.stm for an excellent illustration of the systematic spread of H5N1 along the Eurasian and African flyways.

Andrew Rowlands · Sep 13, 2006

kyanite said:
... an excellent illustration of the systematic spread of H5N1 along the Eurasian and African flyways.

Hardly. Most of it better fits the Trans-Siberian railway and human trade routes.

The timeline is too vague to show how badly it fits any bird flyways - Alaska would have had cases before Europe if flyways were followed.

This 'flu - poultry 'flu, is generally found near henhouses or places where poultry products are sold/dumped.

Pileated_MO · Sep 13, 2006

John Mariani said:
We always watch for IBWOs when we drive I-10 across the Atchafalaya Basin - my wife likes to taunt me by calling out sightings from time to time.

I've heard that's a popular thing to do. I'm tempted to get adventurous one day and hop on I-10 and keep on going just to say I did..and yell "ivory bill" a couple of times for fun. ;-)

colonelboris · Sep 13, 2006

gws said:
Humminbird,

I initially posted way back when these threads started that the very best thing we can do for IBWOs is to expand and protect habitat, connect the Mississippi Valley corridor (and now maybe the Gulf coast corridor) as best as possible and leave them alone. Let nature take it's course.

I know others have mentioned captured breeding. I wonder if there is any possibilities one day with cloning.

I think the problem with cloning is that you have to make sure you have healthy specimens and a large-enough population to reintroduce them to. The other problem is that, having established that you have a healthy specimen, it'll probably be some way into its adult life (well, you have to make sure it's not going to cark it from something that will affect it as an adult) and then you start to get problems with the actual cell being a bit old.
With Dolly the sheep, even though she was quite young, she developed arthritis consistent with a sheep the same age as her 'mother', as well as other old-age conditions, because of the age of the cell used.
This means that you'd have to get one that's fairly young to make sure that it's going to have some breeding potential, but then opens up the risk of breeding some defect into a population. If a remnant population is small, you'll be amplifying the effect.
Not to say it couldn't be done, just some of the possible pit-falls. What would help is if the IBWO has a long breeding life, so the bird can physically reach breeding maturity, but isn't already reaching for its zimmerframe.
You could, in theory, use cells from old skins, but there may be extensive damage to the DNA after that amount of time. If that worked, then it'd open up a route to bringing back other species like Carolina parakeet, using very similar species for hosts.

humminbird · Sep 13, 2006

Andrew Rowlands said:
Hardly. Most of it better fits the Trans-Siberian railway and human trade routes.

The timeline is too vague to show how badly it fits any bird flyways - Alaska would have had cases before Europe if flyways were followed.

This 'flu - poultry 'flu, is generally found near henhouses or places where poultry products are sold/dumped.

Thank you Andrew. Someone who has followed the pattern instead of the hysteria!

curunir · Sep 13, 2006

choupique1 said:
the only way an IBWO can be completly protected .... is in a zoo...... then west nile is still a threat or even bird flu.

Not really. Berlin Zoo near the end of WWII, not a good place. Audubon Park Zoo in New Orleans last year, not a good place.

Twenty some odd years ago I visited the LA zoo where Topa-topa was on exhibit. I could have killed him right at his cage, considering he wanted me to scratch his neck and I obliged. I mentioned it to someone there and he seemed to go off exhibit quickly, I guess there is some advantage to acting like a loon. At that time he was one of maybe twenty birds, not a good way to protect an endangered species on a par with the IBWO at the time.

Curtis Croulet · Sep 14, 2006

Cyberthrush has posted a link to this interesting article: http://www.sosrhino.org/news/rhinonews090606.php

John Mariani · Sep 16, 2006

Mary Scott has updated her website with a teaser about the rumored upcoming announcement by someone about birds somewhere - http://www.birdingamerica.com/Ivorybill/ivorybilledwoodpecker.htm

Wouldn't it be nice if this time there was some fire to go with all the smoke?

EMalatesta · Sep 17, 2006

John Mariani said:
Wouldn't it be nice if this time there was some fire to go with all the smoke?

Indeed. As opposed to mirrors.

Sidewinder · Sep 17, 2006

Well...we now have more of a hint as to who might be associated with the rumor. The printed program (lacking abstracts) is now available for the upcoming AOU meeting in Veracruz (http://www.naoc2006.org/files/naoc2006_pgmbk-en.pdf) and there will be a presentation by Geoffrey E. Hill, Ph.D, of Auburn University (Alabama). The title does not give any indication that the rumored thriving population will be documented:

Hill, G. E.; Mennill, D. J.; Rolek, B.; Hicks, T.; Swiston, K.: THE DOUBLE
KNOCK OF CAMPEPHILUS WOODPECKERS: WHAT SHOULD AN IVORY-BILLED WOODPECKER SOUND LIKE?

However, the coauthors appear to be independent of CLO and Dr. Hill has a stellar publication record (see his website: http://www.auburn.edu/academic/science_math/res_area/hill_lab/index.html). Without seeing an abstract, we can only speculate whether new data will be presented. Certainly, this group appears to be the likely candidate that is expected to make an "announcement" soon about new evidence. If so, I am doubtful that Dr. Hill would put his reputation on the line with flimsy evidence.

There will be another talk given by the Cornell group:

Hill, III, J. R.; Rohrbaugh, R.; Luneau, M. D.; Lammertink, M.; Swarthout, E.: USE OF TIME-LAPSE SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS IN THE SEARCH FOR THE IVORY-BILLED WOODPECKER (CAMPHEPHILUS PRINCIPALIS)

As expected, the vultures at the CLO hate blog are circling. Some have already derided and ridiculed the evidence before even seeing it.

Edward woodwood · Sep 17, 2006

I see Daniel Mennill is viewing the thread

Hi Daniel, Have you (or any of the paper presenters) seen an IBWO well enough to identify it?

atb
Tim

fishcrow · Sep 17, 2006

Sidewinder said:
I am doubtful that Dr. Hill would put his reputation on the line with flimsy evidence.

It is unfortunate that this anti-science attitude is pervasive among birders and ornithologists. Evidence that is less than perfect may still contain important information. In fields such as astronomy and x-ray diffraction, scientists obtain important information by interpreting images that are in many cases of much lower quality than the ivorybill images that have been obtained so far.

Snowy1 · Sep 17, 2006

cinclodes said:
It is unfortunate that this anti-science attitude is pervasive among birders and ornithologists. Evidence that is less than perfect may still contain important information. In fields such as astronomy and x-ray diffraction, scientists obtain important information by interpreting images that are in many cases of much lower quality than the ivorybill images that have been obtained so far.

You raise a very interesting point. Cosmologists claimed in 1996 that evidence supporting extra-solar planets (51 Pegasi, I believe) proves that Earth and our solar system are not unique in the universe. They never did see the planets orbiting other stars - they inferred that planets "must" be orbiting other stars due to a gravitational pull measured in the star as the "planet" orbits around. I would have to look up the article to get more details but this kind of "planetary announcement" is quite common now, with hundreds having been named, none of which have actually been seen.

So the point is, in who's eyes is something confirmed and when is it appropriate to publish a paper stating so? If the debate over the IBWO is carried over to the debate on planets, then extra-solar planets couldn't exist based on what has been presented.

Jane Turner · Sep 17, 2006

cinclodes said:
It is unfortunate that this anti-science attitude is pervasive among birders and ornithologists. Evidence that is less than perfect may still contain important information. In fields such as astronomy and x-ray diffraction, scientists obtain important information by interpreting images that are in many cases of much lower quality than the ivorybill images that have been obtained so far.

Funny, there was me thinking how like diffraction patterns some of claimed Ivory Bill pics are. I wonder what their Fourier transforms look like!

Mike Johnston · Sep 17, 2006

Sidewinder said:
Hill, G. E.; Mennill, D. J.; Rolek, B.; Hicks, T.; Swiston, K.: THE DOUBLE
KNOCK OF CAMPEPHILUS WOODPECKERS: WHAT SHOULD AN IVORY-BILLED WOODPECKER SOUND LIKE?

If they've (allegedly) discovered IBWOs, why do they need to ask? :-O

Mike Johnston · Sep 17, 2006

One comment to this news on Tom Nelson's site states that 'there is to be a presentation at AOU by the grad student who claims the multiple pairs in Florida. He missed the paper deadline, and wouldn't put in a poster, but two people told me that they are giving him space somewhere else.'
Ah, rumours about rumours...

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