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Curlew sp. at Minsmere (2 Viewers)

This bird is a Slender-billed Curlew.

End of story.

Go and see it because it almost certainly WILL be accepted by the BBRC.

Stop debating and get driving.
 
Harry Hussey said:
Hi Mark,

While having some sympathy for your line of thought, it is surely more important to ask the question 'Why is it a Slender-billed Curlew?': after all, the onus should be on observers to prove that it is a SBC!

Harry

Harry, on the thread there are plently od people putting up reasons why it is one. All I keep reading is "it doesn't look right" type of comments, no reasons just hunches.
 
Jane Turner said:
I think the least convincing feature is the shape of the bill tip. The bill on this bird is short... but not especially thin at the tip - in fact it looks quite Whimbrel-like in that respect in the pictures

I had a chat with colleagues in the pub on Friday night and they are all being cautious too. I mentioned that the bird was not easy to separate from a juvenile whimbrel although the wing patterning is not altogether right and the bird would have to have come from a very late nest. The film shown on Friday's local news certainly showed the bird was significantly different from the ECs around it but nothing conclusive to say what it is. Someone mentioned the possibility of an SBC-EC hybrid but we perhaps at least should consider the possibility of a 'genetic' EC too. I am not saying it is any of these (before CJW jumps in) but it would be useful to eliminate some or all.

I do agree with CJW [gasp! ;) ] in that it is a shame the bird turned up at all given the world populatiobn status of SBC. It is still possible that a sizeable breeding population could still be found (it is only a few years ago that Steller's eider breeding grounds were identified for certain) although the number of wintering birds could argue against this idea.
 
It is a 1W probably female Slender-billed Curlew.

I've now spoken 1st hand on the phone to 3 of the most important people involved in the Druridge birds' assessment. All have said this bird is Slender-billed. The overwhelming view from the big boys at the top is that this bird is a Slender-billed Curlew.

I don't want to sound patronising but forget about your mates in the pub and these stupid rumours going around because this really could be your very very last chance to see a Slender-billed Curlew.
 
before anyone jumps on me I'm not saying it is or isn't.....ok? It is just very hard for me, at least, to be sure it's a SBC.

the bill shape was what we all commented on yesterday. It doesn't look right for SBC but that of course is in comparison to the moroccan birds. The posture and behaviour are not right, again in comparison to older records. It does look large too (yes smaller than Eurasian but folks who've seen SBC told me it looks a bit 'big/bulky) However, the Druridge bird ws also at the top end of known size for SBC. It may be that this is indeed what imm. SBC looks like......or given some of the discrepancies in shape and structure something else entirley could be involved...surely we don't have to label it with certainty already?

Two SBCs now, both looking a bit odd and both large - but maybe that's what they're like. I don't know and i don't think anyone knows enough to be sure
 
There was nothing unusual about the Druridge bird. It was a perfect example of a 1st year Slender-billed Curlew. I'm looking at the pictures in BB as I type of a 1st year specimen that simply looks like a slim Eurasian Curlew with a short bill. And that is exactly what sub-adult SBC look like.

A major problem encountered in the Druridge birds acceptance, much to the infuriation of its finders and assessors, was that people kept on saying that it looked nothing like the Morrocan birds.

Tomboster
 
tom mckinney said:
this really could be your very very last chance to see a Slender-billed Curlew.

Surely not true. If this and the Druidge bird were slender-billed they are clearly breeding. They are also clearly much more difficult to seperate from common Curlew, particularly juvs/1st winters, than most people realised and could pass through western and esp. Eastern Europe in small numbers with no-one picking them up. There are large areas of north Africa which are largely off access to birders (e.g. Algeria parts of Libya) wintering populaitons could (and possibly should) exist in these areas.
The one problem with this theory is off course where are the adults which should be much easier to id?
Having said all this i'm certainly glad i've seen this bird even if I was less than impressed by it :bounce:
 
Harry Hussey said:
While having some sympathy for your line of thought, it is surely more important to ask the question 'Why is it a Slender-billed Curlew?': after all, the onus should be on observers to prove that it is a SBC!
Harry

Read my comments above to see reasons why it is presumably a SBC. If it is an aberant Curlew, then can someone please give an educated answer as to why? I have now spoken to so many people, all of whom have seen the bird in the field, and the vast majority feel it is a SBC, a few still don't know either way (but admit it is unlike any EC they have seen). If you watch this bird in the field, it's very hard to turn it into a EC (in fact, i can't!).

Also, it appears the views being obtained over the last 3 days, are not as close as those i was fortunate enough to get on Thursday morning. When i saw it, the bird was 300-400 yards away (and without optics Jane, i couldn't even see the group of Curlews against the grassy background, let alone 'pick-out' the bird, then sepearate it by 'jizz' alone, at a mile!).

Currently, the majority of 'highly rated' birders in the country, do think it's a SBC (of course there are a few exceptions, although by their own admitions, they have made mistakes before!). Furthermore, one or two of the worlds most knowledgeable people on SBC also believe it is one. So maybe people need to get a grasp of the concept of how variable a juvenile SBC could/can be, and except it fits the current known parameters of this species.

As to it having a 'long-bill' - well, thats because its presumed to be a female (longer billed than males), and thus possibly showing a thicker tip.

Ruling out a hybrid would be hard, however, they are unknown currently. Also, SBC and EC breed in different areas, except for both orientalis and sushkini which ARE BOTH BIGGER than nominate arquata. Also, 'steppe' whimbrel is also slightly bigger than nominate whimbrel. Furthermore, hybrid waders ARE rare, and like many hybirds (apart from wildfowl) don't show a great tendency to survive due to genetic problems.

I have to agree with others. Im finding it hard to understand why its not a SBC.
 
I think its wishfull Thinking On the part of those that have seen it, The scientific odds of it being a near extinct bird are overwhelming.
 
tom mckinney said:
It is a 1W probably female Slender-billed Curlew.

I've now spoken 1st hand on the phone to 3 of the most important people involved in the Druridge birds' assessment. All have said this bird is Slender-billed. The overwhelming view from the big boys at the top is that this bird is a Slender-billed Curlew.

I don't want to sound patronising but forget about your mates in the pub and these stupid rumours going around because this really could be your very very last chance to see a Slender-billed Curlew.

Hang on Tom, the mates in the pub were experienced RSPB colleagues and we weren't discussing rumours - just kicking around the possibilities. ;)

That said, surely we have to eliminate all the possibilities before deciding for sure or pre-empting the BBRC judgement? If you want my honest opinion, I can't see any reason to rule against SBC after seeing the Look East film on Friday but I have yet (if I manage anyway) to see the bird in the field. Even better, the Belgian birders seem to have expeience of SBC and they were convinced.
 
Steve said:
I think its wishfull Thinking On the part of those that have seen it, The scientific odds of it being a near extinct bird are overwhelming.

Shot in the dark here - but im guessing you've not seen it! For those of us who have seen it, and feel it's likely to be a SBC, this is because we have studied the bird, taken notes, and then compared them to known SBC skins (photos) and photos. For me, it isn't about the 'tick', its about the identification. If i wanted a 'tick' i'd have gone to St. Martins this weekend!

Overhelming maybe. But it has happened before in this county.
 
marklhawkes said:
Read my comments above to see reasons why it is presumably a SBC. If it is an aberant Curlew, then can someone please give an educated answer as to why?

Ruling out a hybrid would be hard, however, they are unknown currently. Also, SBC and EC breed in different areas, except for both orientalis and sushkini which ARE BOTH BIGGER than nominate arquata. Also, 'steppe' whimbrel is also slightly bigger than nominate whimbrel. Furthermore, hybrid waders ARE rare, and like many hybirds (apart from wildfowl) don't show a great tendency to survive due to genetic problems.

I have to agree with others. Im finding it hard to understand why its not a SBC.

because it could be one of several options you've listed yourself Mark. I don't know what it is - not a Eurasian doesn't mean it's an SBC.......and if it's not an SBC doesn't mean it's got to be a Eurasian. And not enough is known about sushkini yet....

You yourself say presumably. Unfortunately that's not quite enough, especially for a bird of SBC's conservation status and for a bird so infrequently recorded as an adult for the last 20 years people genuinely thought it may just have been extinct.

let's hope it is SBC and that some adults are lingering around some remote area of Asia and wintering in some unvisited part of Africa

cheers
Timster B :)
 
Shot in the dark here - but im guessing you've not seen it!
Correct and those Members who know me will tell you I wouldnt look out of my window if it was on my lawn.

However How about this for a suggestion, As this is such an important bird, would it not make sense (and be of National importance ) to catch it. I think I saw a film once where Nets were "fired" onto geese by some sort of charge ?

Surely there must be some experts who could wade/walk/swim/punt/ out there and set the nets??

Over to you ?
 
Ian Peters said:
Hang on Tom, the mates in the pub were experienced RSPB colleagues and we weren't discussing rumours

Sorry Ian, I didn't mean to imply that you were discussing rumours. Under normal circumstances I'd trust your RSPB colleagues, but of the 3 people I've spoken to, one has more experience of real life SBC than anyone else on the planet, the other has more experience of SBC skins than any other person on the planet and the final one compiled about 9 tons worth of field notes on the Druridge bird that were essential in the birds assessment.

And to just stop one rumour going around: there were 2 Belgian birders at Minsmere yesterday saying that they thought it wasn't SBC, neither of these were Didier Vangeluwe.

Tomacata
 
tom mckinney said:
The overwhelming view from the big boys at the top is that this bird is a Slender-billed Curlew.
If all the people who know most about the ID of SBC are saying it is one then obviously that isn't something any of us should dismiss lightly. However I'd still like to make my own mind up. Unfortunately I'm not sure whether I'll get the chance to go for it so will have to make do with the pics.

Anyone who hasn't read the June 2002 issue of BB really should get a copy - 28 pages on the ID and assessment of the Druridge bird. I hope he won't mind, but I've taken the liberty of borrowing one of Paul Bagguley's pics from the Surfbirds site and adjusting the brightness and contrast levels (nothing else) to show the bird more clearly. The BBRC consider bill length and structure to be objective and highly relevant factors in the ID of SBC. The pic shows the bill to be 1.25 times the head length (or perhaps a fraction more) which is at the shorter end of SBC's range. This is similar to the Druridge bird, about which the BBRC commented that it was extremely unlikely to be matched by anything other than an extremely abnormal Eurasian Curlew. Contrary to what I initially thought, the bill does seem fine enough at the tip for SBC. The basal half appears straight, but evenly tapered, while the distal half is down-curved and parallel. This tapering is consistent with SBC and "strongly against Eurasian Curlew [which] appears almost parallel-sided in the middle third and shows relatively little taper, even in the basal third. ... The pattern of curvature also points away from Eurasian Curlew" (BBRC).

Obviously there are many other factors to consider and I shall need to read the BB article much more carefully - but it's looking good to me so far. For anyone who is wondering about the lack of spots (I was), I see that one of the photos in the article is of an SBC skin in which the bird shows only four spots on its visible flank.
 

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tom mckinney said:
Sorry Ian, I didn't mean to imply that you were discussing rumours. Under normal circumstances I'd trust your RSPB colleagues, but of the 3 people I've spoken to, one has more experience of real life SBC than anyone else on the planet, the other has more experience of SBC skins than any other person on the planet and the final one compiled about 9 tons worth of field notes on the Druridge bird that were essential in the birds assessment.

Tomacata

It's OK mate no offence taken. Funnily enough, the subject of capture as mentioned by Steve also came up. Given the importance of this bird from a conservation standpoint, it would make sense to even go to the extent of radio-tracking it. My colleagues seemed to feel there was a good chance of the bird returning to its breeding ground. I am not sure but I do not see any reason (short of the practicality question) why the bird should not be captured and marked. I am sure the purists will frown at this but if we are rapidly being convinced of the identity then there are conservation issues that come into play. What does everyone else think?
 
Watcha Tommo

Jimmy had seven sets of notes to look at - probably the same number as were actually taken in the field!......and six more than i saw being taken yesterday! ;)

...just a bit of light relief :bounce:

I reckon i saw it with the biggest hangover though!

and yes, catch it and tag it and take some blood too.
 
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