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Curlew sp. at Minsmere (2 Viewers)

The following comments have been made by LGRE on the uk400club yahoogroup.

Lancashire birder and artist Tony Disley has provided some more detailed
images of the Minsmere curlew and in my opinion they prove beyond doubt that the

bird is an ADULT. The tertials are seen to be heavily contrasting, strongly
barred and not notched as in a first-winter. Therefore I am convinced that the
bird is NOT a Slender-billed Curlew as adults of this species are highly
distinctive. Furthermore, Tony's image portraying the upper tail clearly reveals
the
presence of at least 7 bars (my field notes detected 8) and Slender-billed
from my observations only ever showed between 3 and 5 (exceptionally 6). Couple
this with the fact that the eye-ring is poorly defined, the underwing pattern
is incorrect, the brightness at the base of the bill, the paler leg colour, the
coalesced breast spotting and slightly arrow-shaped flank markings, pale
mantle and large size, then I believe that the bird is a non-starter for SBC.

So what is it I hear you ask? A runt Eurasian Curlew? A hybrid? Obviously, I
cannot answer this question as this individual bird is anomalous. I have made
extensive enquiries about this record and have been extremely pleased with the
results. Unfortunately the main man, Didier, has so far not responded to my
Emails but this may be possibly because of his workload.

One very interesting Email I received was from Russian ornithologist Valery
Moseykin. I had asked him about the authenticity of 27 recently claimed SBC's
in the Ukraine. His reply was such (translated into English).

''I participated in the Russian programme to search for the Slender-billed
Curlew and agree fully with the opinions of Professors Tomkovich, Morozov &
Koblik that it is necessary to ensure the correct identification of the species.

The main problems here are separation from N.arquata orientalis (Eastern
Curlew) and N.p.alboaxillaris (Steppe Whimbrel).

It is my opinion that SBC no longer exists as a species but just as a hybrid
- between the two steppe species I mention above. In 2001, in steppe
surrounding an oasis in the Kazakhstan desert we found a mixed colony of nesting

curlews (orientalis & alboaxillaris) and we found that some individuals were
actually INDISTINGUISHABLE in the field from what were previously described as
Slender-billed Curlews (and I must remind you that Russian ornithologist Zarudny

described a mixed nesting pair of Slender-billed Curlew and Eastern Curlew).
Russian collector Ushakov was unique in that he reportedly found the nests of
Slender-billed Curlew. He apparently took away eggs and shot adult birds.
However,
he later acknowledged the presence of orientalis in the area and examination
of much data, specimens and eggs from this era appear to indicate that
mistakes were made''

Valery's reply could very well provide the answer to our identification
problem. Maybe this Minsmere bird and the previous Hauxley, Northumberland,
individual are actually hybrids from this region. This is perhaps more likely
than an
unusually small, pale, male Eurasian Curlew.

In the near future, I shall write a detailed account of this occurrence and
redress the balance with the Northumberland claim. I must also thank Arnoud van
den Berg, Chris Heard and Ian Lewington for their kind input and discussion.
 
And this was my reply to the above comments by LGRE.

Im glad somebody has finally addressed this issue of a hybrid bird,
after my comments yesterday.

The Russian information is very interesting, do you have a source or
reference Lee so that others can also read about this issue? For
such an important statement (in regards to the conservation side
SBC), i assume these discoveries were published somewhere.

I am a little puzzled tho. The suggestion from the Russsian
scientists appears to be that hybridization between orientalis EC
and alboaxillaris Whimbrel is producing birds "INDISTINGUISHABLE"
from SBC. Were these birds trapped to confirm that they were indeed
hybrids (using biometrics or DNA samples)? Because if not, why were
they not SBC's? Furthermore, the suggestion seems to be that the
hybridization between orientalis x alboaxillaris is producing what
appears (for all intense and purpose) to be a third species. Does
this mean SBC may never have existed? I find the word
INDISTINGUISHABLE very strong. Are there other confirmed reports of
known hybrids between two species producing "INDISTINGUISHABLE" off-
spring resembling a third species? Not similar, but
indistinguishable?

There is no doubt that this information could explain the Minsmere
curlew, although it is strange that Didier has made no mention of
this work to anybody? What are his opinion?

As always with debatable birds, im open to opinion, and willing to
be educated, if someone can produce a sound reasoning. Although,
some birds, as we all know, may remain forever unidentified!
 
Mmmm...I have to say that having watched the bird on Sunday, then come away and done a bit of research i`m not entirely convinced that the bird is a Slender-billed Curlew - something i`m entirely happy with, as before I went i considered the odds to be so overwhelmingly against two individual`s of a supposedly almost extinct species turning up on the East Coast of England....
Having said that I am most definately not happy with any explanation that invokes the dreaded Hybrid cop out....surely the last attempted explanation of the inexplicable!
Bear in mind (and i`m not stirring, as I am minded to agree with his underlying thoughts) that Lee Evans is not 100% unbiased on this - if the record of the Northumberland bird could be re-assessed in light of the new information gathered, that would vindicate Lee`s stance on the Northumberland bird...
I`d be more comfortable if someone could demonstrate that the bird is of a recognised race of Curlew (or even Whimbrel) or falls within the usual range of variation of Curlew before we start to invoke a
mixed race of curlews (orientalis & alboaxillaris) INDISTINGUISHABLE in the field from what were previously described as
Slender-billed Curlews
 
Jasonbirder said:
I`d be more comfortable if someone could demonstrate that the bird is of a recognised race of Curlew (or even Whimbrel) or falls within the usual range of variation of Curlew ...

...or genetic morph of EC or whimbrel??? None of my colleagues are happy with the hybrid idea either because ECs and whimbrels do not hybridise now.
 
Hi Jason,
Jasonbirder said:
Bear in mind (and i`m not stirring, as I am minded to agree with his underlying thoughts) that Lee Evans is not 100% unbiased on this - if the record of the Northumberland bird could be re-assessed in light of the new information gathered, that would vindicate Lee`s stance on the Northumberland bird....
While not wishing to stir either, may I suggest that Lee would also have a bias to prove that this is a Slender-billed Curlew, as if this were so then he would have a new British tick, having seen it for himself....
Harry
 
here are some reasonable pics of the underwing. . not taken by me, but they look interesting all the same!
 
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Having seen what I was convinced was a SBC in Greece the one very outstanding difference that is noticeable to me is the bill. The bill on the one I saw was absolutely needle sharp and making comparisons with Paul Hackets videograbs on the Minsmere bird I can't see how this can be a SBC, as much as I would like it to be. The bill appears to be far too thick.

As yet nobody has answered my theory on it being a possible Steppe Whimbrel that I put forward earlier on this thread. I would love that theory to be rubbished but I have read quite a bit of literature that states SBC and Steppe Whimbrel do look very much alike.
 
Jasonbirder said:
Having said that I am most definately not happy with any explanation that invokes the dreaded Hybrid cop out....surely the last attempted explanation of the inexplicable!

I'm still in a quandry whether or not to throw off my ingrained habits and twitch out-of-county to see this bird. I thought that the points made by LGRE, if confirmed, really confuses things and disinclines me to go. I'd also generally agree with Jason on the hybrid question ..... but the spectre of Cox's Sandpiper suggests caution! John
 
Reader said:
Having seen what I was convinced was a SBC in Greece the one very outstanding difference that is noticeable to me is the bill. The bill on the one I saw was absolutely needle sharp and making comparisons with Paul Hackets videograbs on the Minsmere bird I can't see how this can be a SBC, as much as I would like it to be. The bill appears to be far too thick.

As yet nobody has answered my theory on it being a possible Steppe Whimbrel that I put forward earlier on this thread. I would love that theory to be rubbished but I have read quite a bit of literature that states SBC and Steppe Whimbrel do look very much alike.

In agreement on both fronts. I got a shock when I first got onto the bird on Sunday morning, and spent a good few minutes trying to get a view of the rest of the field, thinking that 'the bird' was hidden from me. The bill looked too evenly thick, and also too extensively pink, in comparison with the pictures I'd seen posted on the Internet - obviously angle and light had been having an effect.

From what I've read the absence of extensive pink on the bill is a major point towards eliminating 'alboaxillaris', yet this form is not mentioned in the BB paper on the Druridge Bay bird. Has anyone managed to find any photos of this form as yet?
 
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Reader said:
As yet nobody has answered my theory on it being a possible Steppe Whimbrel that I put forward earlier on this thread. I would love that theory to be rubbished but I have read quite a bit of literature that states SBC and Steppe Whimbrel do look very much alike.

Steppe Whimbrel are, firstly very rare, being rarely seen by scientists who have been searching for SBC's, and secondly, although they superficially resemble SBC they should show a prominent median crown stripe. Futhermore, the call would (i guess) be similar to Whimbrel, and the Minsmere bird has been confirmed as calling like a curlew sp.
 
marklhawkes said:
Steppe Whimbrel are, firstly very rare, being rarely seen by scientists who have been searching for SBC's, and secondly, although they superficially resemble SBC they should show a prominent median crown stripe. Futhermore, the call would (i guess) be similar to Whimbrel, and the Minsmere bird has been confirmed as calling like a curlew sp.

Thanks Mark

I hadn't read anywhere that this bird had actually been heard calling.

With the SBC the call should be weaker and in a higher pitch than an EC. Has that been noted?
 
quote from Christopher Zockler:

" it is sincerely hoped that future expeditions will find the breeding areas for Slender-billed Curlews, but for the equally threatened Steppe Whimbrel, conservation actions could be taken right now" BW 11: 274. Furthermore, as i just stated, the call and head pattern are wrong for alboaxillaris Whimbrel.
 
Reader said:
Thanks Mark

I hadn't read anywhere that this bird had actually been heard calling.

With the SBC the call should be weaker and in a higher pitch than an EC. Has that been noted?
Varying opinions on call. Some describe it spot on for EC, while others say it is slightly higher pitched, and more like SBC
 
Ben and Reader, are you 100% sure you saw the right bird? I only ask, not to cast aspursions on your skills, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, when I visited the site on Monday, people had been claiming a pale male EC as the bird and while others were not convinced they were a) putting out news and b) leaving convinced they had seen the bird in question!! When the true bird was later seen (well) it had a small thin bill in my oppinion (my photos were rubbish too much wind so I can't prove much).

Has anyone seen the BBC footage of the bird?? or know where it can still be seen, I have been told it made some people rush straight to Minsmere as it was so convincing!!
 
John Cantelo said:
I'm still in a quandry whether or not to throw off my ingrained habits and twitch out-of-county to see this bird. I thought that the points made by LGRE, if confirmed, really confuses things and disinclines me to go. I'd also generally agree with Jason on the hybrid question ..... but the spectre of Cox's Sandpiper suggests caution! John

Go and see the bird - the pics do not tell the whole story - the structure and behaviour are certainly not evident.
Best bet is to go and see the bird yourself and then make your own mind up.

Re. the birds call I have been told that it has been heard calling and is good for sbc - though I have not heard it myself. Will be going back tomorrow in the hope of heaing it call and also to try and get some photos...
 
Ashley beolens said:
Ben and Reader, are you 100% sure you saw the right bird? QUOTE]

I did ask myself this at the time...the other 200 or so people were fairly happy it was the right one, and that included a lot of people who had been watching it over the whole week. In the end managed to leave certain that I'd seen the bird in question, but not at all certain of what it was.

Then, yesterday, with the reports of the male Curlew, I began to worry again. However, managed to reconcile my rather poor video footage with the original pics by Brian Small - concentrating on left side features - pale coverts, missing tertial, exposed tail - all there.

So I don't doubt that the bird watched by everyone on Sunday was the right one...the pics coming from the stubble field shots don't look as good as the pics of it on the levels though.
 
mmm interesting

not quite so embarrassed me and my mates were vociferous on Saturday about it not being one now!

or about the Druridge record either!!!

u n me against the world Chris!
 
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