Capitalization of Common Bird Names? (1 Viewer)

fugl · Aug 12, 2017

Against grouchiness in the discussion of English usage the Gods struggle in vain!

That said, I find "latin names" quite acceptable, not because they're "latinized" (how pedantic can one get?) but because the term is long established in educated English usage.

Nutcracker · Aug 12, 2017

Fred Ruhe said:
Ans by the way, I just opened my sixth pint of beer,

Really? I'd have thought beer was sold by the half-litre or litre in the Netherlands?

Jos Stratford said:
Capitals all the way for me, mammals, butterflies, birds ...

fugl said:
And trees? Or do you draw the line at the animal kingdom?

Jos Stratford said:
Plant species too. I am not alone - for example, THIS field guide for trees, and THIS Bird Forum thread on orchids.

Caps for me too, for all species, including plants. BSBI (Botanical Society of Britain and Ireland) uses caps for the official standard English plant names (e.g. Ribwort Plantain for Plantago lancolata, etc., etc.).

Fred Ruhe · Aug 12, 2017

Nutcracker said:
Really? I'd have thought beer was sold by the half-litre or litre in the Netherlands?.

No, it is sold in in units of 30 cl., 50 cl., 30 l. 50 l. and 1000 l. (the last three only for bars and café's), (the main units, but there are also bottles of 25 cl., but they are not common), but, as always, I tried to adjust to English terms and understanding, I am an easy and adaptable person.

Fred, at least nutcracker, I use my own name, you just hide behind an alias.

fugl · Aug 12, 2017

Fred Ruhe said:
. . .at least nutcracker, I use my own name, you just hide behind an alias.

A remark no less fatheaded now than when you first made it some time ago in another thread. Or is it just all those "pints" talking?

Fred Ruhe · Aug 12, 2017

dear Fugi,

In another thread I said I did not discuss things with people who don't use their own name. I still think that people who try to discuss subjects under an alias are cowards.

Fred

Jos Stratford · Aug 12, 2017

Fred Ruhe said:
In another thread I said I did not discuss things with people who don't use their own name. I still think that people who try to discuss subjects under an alias are cowards.

Many good reasons why persons might want to use an alias. What difference does it make though? Do you learn something about a poster through the name?

Is my name an alias, is it my real name? Do you gain any better understanding knowing this?

fugl · Aug 12, 2017

Fred Ruhe said:
I still think that people who try to discuss subjects under an alias are cowards.

In the current thread alone, that adds up to at least 5 "cowards" (me, Nutcracker, birdmeister, dantheman, McMadd), and over BF as a whole, tens of thousands more, an attitude on your part that I find the opposite of easy-going.

I was joking before but now I think it must be the alcohol speaking

fugl · Aug 12, 2017

Jos Stratford said:
Many good reasons why persons might want to use an alias.

Indeed, including just a spirit of playfulness. . ..

Fred Ruhe · Aug 13, 2017

fugl said:
In the current thread alone, that adds up to at least 5 "cowards" (me, Nutcracker, birdmeister, dantheman, McMadd), and over BF as a whole, tens of thousands more, an attitude on your part that I find the opposite of easy-going.

I was joking before but now I think it must be the alcohol speaking

I think I don't share your sence of humor, but beside that, there are few people who have a very possitive influence on the birdforum, people like Melanie Nayyal, Laurent Raty, Peter Kovalik, Paul Scofield, the late Richard Klim, Calalp (Björn) from Sweden, and many others, maybe even me. We all use our own name, we are not anonymous. Most people with an alias have nothing to say, just critizise the people with an opinion.

Fred

Rick Wright · Aug 13, 2017

McMadd said:
"Latin names"...erm...no...can we then, all you pedants, agree to call them "Scientific names"...which is what they are...?

Yes, hurray! Some birds had Latin names, most did not, but all have scientific names.

Nutcracker · Aug 13, 2017

Fred Ruhe said:
dear Fugi,

As an aside, he's Fugl (and presumably has Danish ancestry)

fugl · Aug 13, 2017

Nutcracker said:
As an aside, he's Fugl (and presumably has Danish ancestry)

No "presumably" about it!

fugl · Aug 13, 2017

Fred Ruhe said:
I think I don't share your sence of humor, but beside that, there are few people who have a very possitive influence on the birdforum, people like Melanie Nayyal, Laurent Raty, Peter Kovalik, Paul Scofield, the late Richard Klim, Calalp (Björn) from Sweden, and many others, maybe even me. We all use our own name, we are not anonymous. Most people with an alias have nothing to say, just critizise the people with an opinion.

You mean first names count as non-"aliases" in your view but ethnicity markers like "fugl" do not? I bet there are more "Melanies" in the world than Danish-Americans (or just plain Danes for that matter

).

For someone with a scientific background, you sure engage in a lot of special pleading.

Jos Stratford · Aug 13, 2017

Fred Ruhe said:
...there are few people who have a very possitive influence on the birdforum, people like Melanie Nayyal, Laurent Raty, Peter Kovalik, Paul Scofield, the late Richard Klim, Calalp (Björn) from Sweden, and many others, maybe even me. Most people with an alias have nothing to say, just critizise the people with an opinion.

You started with thread with a rant about persons starting a discussion on bird names, now are declaring that you consider yourself amongst an illustrious few that have any positive influence on Birdforum.

I appreciate that you rarely delve into the wider Birdforum beyond bird paleontology and taxomony, worthy but very limited areas in this community, but it is simply total rubbish to suggest to try and suggest persons with an alias have nothing to say - across BirdForum, there are numerous fantastic persons, some using their true name, some not.

As far as I can see, the only criticism towards you has been due to your apparent intolerance over persons wishing to discuss bird names and then attack on persons wishing to use an alias.

Andy Adcock · Aug 13, 2017

Fred Ruhe said:
dear Fugi,

In another thread I said I did not discuss things with people who don't use their own name. I still think that people who try to discuss subjects under an alias are cowards.

Fred

Veering away from the topic but I have some agreement with Fred on this. Although this thread is not in any way controversial (so far) or confrontational, the use of alias's does embolden some and makes it easy to be confrontational, strongly opinionated or even insulting whilst remaining anonymous. In the main, I think I'd like to see a move away from anonymity.

Another plus would be that it might prevent me from making a tit of myself if I knew I was arguing an ID with e.g Paul Holt (but it might not :-O)..........moving on.

Nutcracker · Aug 13, 2017

andyadcock said:
Veering away from the topic but I have some agreement with Fred on this. Although this thread is not in any way controversial (so far) or confrontational, the use of alias's does embolden some and makes it easy to be confrontational, strongly opinionated or even insulting whilst remaining anonymous. In the main, I think I'd like to see a move away from anonymity.

Another plus would be that it might prevent me from making a tit of myself if I knew I was arguing an ID with e.g Paul Holt (but it might not :-O)..........moving on.

Problem is, you can't know if a supposed real name is genuine or not - it might be a different person impersonating the real person you think you're dealing with. If Joe Bloggs signed up calling themselves 'Paul Holt', how would we know it wasn't Paul Holt? So it's effectively no different to an obvious nom-de-plume.

MTem · Aug 13, 2017

Personally I don't think you have to be on here long (especially if you're a 'cross-dresser' like me and indulge in photography, butterflies, Odonata, and Gallery) to figure out who's opinions are worthy of careful consideration, alias or not. If I was a 'name' in the birding world I think I'd prefer an alias so I can be sure people are responding to my input dispassionately, and that I'm making my point well.

Back to the topic, I'm for capitalisation of bird names, except after a hyphen (as suggested above), but what about always italicising 'scientific' names? I know it's a pain but it just looks right.....

BUT far more important is to take the care to get the bloody names right in the first place if you're going to post them online. How many Google searches do you make, perhaps to check an ID, or an immature plumage, only to find a good % are completely wrong? The Gallery on here is far from perfect in this regard, and in a disappointing number of cases trying to politely suggest by pm the ID is wrong or should be checked, I have been told impolitely to pi$$ off and stop interfering, in one case by a member with over 100,000 posts. Off topic rant, sorry.....

Mick Temple

Andy Adcock · Aug 13, 2017

MTem said:
Back to the topic, I'm for capitalisation of bird names, except after a hyphen (as suggested above), but what about always italicising 'scientific' names? I know it's a pain but it just looks right.....

Mick Temple

Agree but then we get to the old chestnut 'to hyphenate or not to Hyphenate'..!

Hawk-Eagle, Hawk Eagle, Hawkeagle, think I made up the last one......

I always italicise scientific names if the facility to do so is available.

A

Björn Bergenholtz · Aug 13, 2017

Birds of the World: Recommended English Names (Gill & Wright, 2006) ... its Wiki-page here:

• Official English names of species are capitalized (as was already the practice among ornithologists)
• Patronyms (names of people) are used in the possessive form, e.g., "Ross's Gull"
• Names used do not include diacriticals or inflection marks
• Compromises are made between British and American spellings
• Users are encouraged to spell and use pronunciation marks according to their preference
• Geographical names may be the noun or adjective form, but must be consistent for the location, e.g., Canada (as in "Canada Goose" and "Canada Warbler"), not Canadian, but African (as in "African Piculet" or "African Wood Owl"), not Africa
• Compound words adhere to a set of rules designed to be consistent in their balancing of readability and the relationships of the words
• Hyphens are minimized, but for compound group names, hyphens are used only to connect two names that are themselves bird species or families, e.g., "Eagle-Owl", "Wren-Babbler", or when the combined name would be difficult to read, e.g., "Silky-flycatcher"

Andy Adcock · Aug 13, 2017

Calalp said:
Birds of the World: Recommended English Names (Gill & Wright, 2006) ... its Wiki-page here:

Why is the last example not 'Silky Flycatcher', I'm ok with Phainoptila anyway?

Does the recommended guideline have a European / British or American bias/influence if any? Some seem to be veering away from hyphenating e.g Eagle Owl? This example seems odd to me to hyphenate as the name arises from it's size not it's relationship to Eagles unlike e.g Hawk-Eagle which makes a bit more sense.....to me anyway?

A

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