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Help with some ID from Japan (Honshu) (August 2017) (1 Viewer)

arodris

Well-known member
Hi,

I have some doubts about the ID of some birds that I saw in a recent trip to Japan, to Honshu island. I include you some pictures.

Picture 1 was taken on the Jigokudani Monkey Park, in Yamanouchi, within the Japanese Alps (August 8th). Possible asian brown flycatcher (Muscicapa dauurica)?

Picture 2 was taken in the Arakurayama Sengen Park, in Fujiyoshida (August 9th). Possible eurasian sparrowhawk (Accipiter nisus)?

Pictures 3-4 were taken in Shinjuku Gyoen National Garden (Tokyo) (August 12th). Possible japanese cormorant (Phalacrocorax capillatus)?

Picture 5 was taken in Katsura river, in Arashiyama (near Kyoto) (August 1st). Possible great cormorant (Phalacrocorax carbo)?

Thanks in advance.
 

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You'd be better off placing this in the bird identification forum - you would get a lot more traffic with people looking at your pics.

I'm afraid I'm not an expert enough to give and solid advice on the first two, although those seem like solid guesses to me.

The cormorants though I believe are all great cormorants - as a rule of thumb Japanese Cormorant is a coastal species while great cormorant is more limited to inland bodies of water than it is in Europe. There's also the differences in the shape of the yellow section at the base of the beak - with great cormorant/these birds from the corner of the mouth the border of the yellow section goes roughly vertically down. On a japanese cormorant it goes diagonally down more towards the front of the face, resulting in a much smaller, wedge shaped yellow area.
 
Hi Antonio,

I'd agree with all of your IDs myself (though await correction), and with Alex's revisions.

#1 Can't think of anything else that looks like that other than Asian Brown.
#2 There's a very short P10 there I think, making 6 fingers (5 on Japanese).
#3,4,5 In addition to the gape patch mentioned by Alex, Japanese Cormorant is more green, less bronze above, with less distinct scaling: http://www.mangoverde.com/wbg/images/00000004244.jpg

At least, this is my understanding of things!

Steve
 
The second bird looks (to me) a little too long-winged for an Accipiter. I would suggest it's a Grey-faced Buzzard.

I considered that - in fact, it was my first reaction - but aren't the coverts too dark? I've lightened the picture but they still look a bit brownish, although you can see the spotting on the coverts. I think I can make out a gular stripe too.
 

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I think the cormorants are both Great.

Is Kestrel out of the question for #2? The photo isn't very clear, but it would be the most common possibilty in given the location and season.
 
The second bird looks (to me) a little too long-winged for an Accipiter. I would suggest it's a Grey-faced Buzzard.

Interesting!

I can see the long wings, John, but also I fancy a long and slender tail not really in keeping with Grey-faced Buzzard. I still think this is some kind of Accipiter, albeit one at an 'unconventional' angle. Which one would depend on how many 'fingers' it had/has (I fancy six), but Japanese does also tend to have a notched tail.

As Andy also points out, shouldn't the underwing coverts be whitish on a Grey-faced Buzzard, especially the under primary coverts?

Steve
 
I can see the long wings, John, but also I fancy a long and slender tail not really in keeping with Grey-faced Buzzard. I still think this is some kind of Accipiter, albeit one at an 'unconventional' angle. Which one would depend on how many 'fingers' it had/has (I fancy six), but Japanese does also tend to have a notched tail.

My impression of GfB is that they have quite a long and narrow tail like this bird in direct flight, whereas my impression of Japanese Sparrowhawk is usually of a noticeably short-tailed bird (compared to other Accipiters). For me, this is a poor fit for Japanese on tail length.

I'm struggling with the lighting on the photo to really get an idea of the plumage pattern on the body or underwing coverts. I had the impression that the shadow was making the underwing look darker than it would be in life.

But looking again at the overall shape of the bird and the pattern of barring
on the flight feathers (especially primaries), I now agree that this fits best for Eurasian Sparrowhawk.
 
My impression of GfB is that they have quite a long and narrow tail like this bird in direct flight, whereas my impression of Japanese Sparrowhawk is usually of a noticeably short-tailed bird (compared to other Accipiters). For me, this is a poor fit for Japanese on tail length.

As far as I can tell, there is a short outermost primary just visible on the leading edge of the wing, giving 6 fingers to the hand. On Japanese Sparrowhawk (and Grey-faced Buzzard, incidentally) there should be only 5.

As you say, the tail is too long and narrow for Japanese Sparrowhawk, on which he tail is also usually notched. So, all told, I think we can say with certainty that this one is a Eurasian Sparrowhawk.

Steve
 

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Thank you to all of you for your comments. When I saw the raptor in the field, my impression was that it was an accipiter, but I was not sure on the species. The ligth was poor at that time of the evening. I agree with most of you in that it was an eurasian sparrowhawk.

My main doubt were the cormorants, and now it become clear that they are great.

Thank you again

Antonio
 
More cormorants

Hi again,

I guess that these two pictures (sorry for the quality), taken in Odaiba island, Tokyo, are japanese cormorants (Phalacrocorax capillatus) (taken on august 12th).Do you agree?

Thanks
 

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Hi again,

I guess that these two pictures (sorry for the quality), taken in Odaiba island, Tokyo, are japanese cormorants (Phalacrocorax capillatus) (taken on august 12th).Do you agree?

Thanks

Not at all sure with these, but I would guess that they are most likely Great based on a combination of bronze-toned upperparts (on some), rounded-looking gular patches (on some), smallish white face patches (on all), and lack of yellow in the lower mandibles of immatures.

Steve
 
Hi again,

I guess that these two pictures (sorry for the quality), taken in Odaiba island, Tokyo, are japanese cormorants (Phalacrocorax capillatus) (taken on august 12th).Do you agree?

Thanks

I would have said that the foreground bird in the first photo is a great cormorant again, and possibly the other two, although honestly the angle isn't good enough to tell for sure.

In the second photo however, I do think you have some Japanese cormorant! At least the birds on either side, not sure about the central one with it's face turned away.
 
Having failed with the Sparrowhawk, I was going to stay out of the rest of the thread about the cormorants. But I hope my comments on the cormorants and my photos will help the OP and others who may be reading.

I don't think that there are any Temminck's (Japanese) Cormorants in any of the photos, and even if there were, you can't see enough to call the ID. Great is overwhelmingly the common cormorant in Japan, even on the coast.

I have been birding in Japan for ten years or so (and had never birded elsewhere previously). Just last week by chance, I started to combine all my bird photos into one catalogue. Otherwise they are in annual catalogues (originally I never expected to get even moderately serious about birding), mixed in with scenic and family photos and whatnot. One purpose of making a Japanese birds catalogue is to try to weed out ID errors I've made, and I've found quite a few already.

Anyway, when I looked at my ten-year catalogue, I was surprised to find only about sixty photos ID'd as Temminck's. And when I looked at them, some were probably Greats and others were uncertain. But when I looked at the locations, I realised why. I live quite a way from the sea. But even at the coast, the cormorants are Great, unless you are at a remote and rocky location (I'm not saying they never stray; just that you would need very good evidence in another location). Another reason is that I have only a 300mm lens - I like to walk around rather than stand by a tripod. And Temminck's are rarely close enough to get a good shot with a 300mm lens.

The Japanese word for Great Cormorant is Kawau - U is cormorant, and Kawa is river, so River Cormorant. (Fun fact for use in birding club pub quizzes: the Maori word for Great Cormorant is Kawau, with some completely different etymology.)

The Japanese for Temminck's Cormorant is Umiu - Umi is sea, so Sea Cormorant. But sea doesn't seem to mean on the coast, it really means on the sea or out to sea.

I am attaching some of my photos to illustrate some points. There are more than five photos, so the photos and my comments will spill over to the next post (i.e. my reply to this post).

As far as I can see from books and observation, the key feature differentiating the two birds visually is the shape of the yellow face patch. If seen clearly, this comes to a point behind the bill line in Temminck's descending in a concave path after the point (relative to the bill). In Great, a clear point is often not obvious, and the yellow makes a convex shape below the bill. Another way of saying this would be: if the bill is horizontal, then there is never yellow below the bill which is behind the point at the rear of the bill in Temminck's, but there usually or always is in Great.

However, seasonal (and age) differences are large, and then there's the fact that when you see them, their feathering is affected by water, mud, and other stuff.

I also looked at illlustrations and photos in books I have, and another point I would like to make is that the photos and illustrations tend to illustrate the best case; but many birds in the field are not so obviously species A rather than species B.

Photos 1 (Temminck's) and 2 (Great) are juvenile birds, but illustrate the difference of facial yellow well.

Photos 3 and 4 are breeding Temminck's from two different places. Notice how little yellow there is, as well as its shape. Great has a more yellow than this even in breeding plumage (though see photos in next post).

Photo 5 shows some breeding Temminck's. Again, notice the pointing of the yellow, and how little there is. And on the right-hand bird, maybe you can see the green sheen to the coverts that is supposed to be a distinctive feature of Temminck's as opposed to Great (though I wouldn't recommend relying on it).
 

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Photo 1 in this post shows the location of the birds in photo 5 of my post #1. This is the kind of location you find Temminck's. It's a sea bird.

Photo 2 shows a broader view of the birds in photo 5 of post #1. You can see they are sharing the rock with Pelagic Cormorants (on the left of the photo) - not Great Cormorants.

Photo 3 shows a 'typical' Great Cormorant at a pond near my house well away from the sea. You can see what I meant in my earlier point about the yellow below the bill sometimes extending further back than the 'point' at the bill in Great Cormorant.

But photos 4 and 5 show Greats in or near breeding plumage. Photo 4 is at the same pond as photo 3. You can see the famous 'bronze' sheen which is said to be distinctive of Great (as you can in 3). Photo 5 is at the shore, but as you can see, not a rocky shore. So, it's not always easy, depending on season and age.

Of course, given my success on the Sparrowhawk, I'm psychologically prepared for someone to tell me my IDs of these photos is wrong. But I hope they help the discussion anyway.

And a final message to Arodris: I hope you enjoyed your visit to Japan. Although I'm not Japanese, I've had a happy life here, and always hope visitors have a good time. And when I started birding here, I also found a lot of Temminck's (later revised), and a lot of other rareties (later revised). It's easy to see the birds you hope or expect to see in a location; though I'm wiser now, I still do it sometimes. It's disappointing when it turns out not to be correct. But on the bright side, it's always a reason to go again.
 

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Photo 1 in this post shows the location of the birds in photo 5 of my post #1. This is the kind of location you find Temminck's. It's a sea bird.

Photo 2 shows a broader view of the birds in photo 5 of post #1. You can see they are sharing the rock with Pelagic Cormorants (on the left of the photo) - not Great Cormorants.

Photo 3 shows a 'typical' Great Cormorant at a pond near my house well away from the sea. You can see what I meant in my earlier point about the yellow below the bill sometimes extending further back than the 'point' at the bill in Great Cormorant.

But photos 4 and 5 show Greats in or near breeding plumage. Photo 4 is at the same pond as photo 3. You can see the famous 'bronze' sheen which is said to be distinctive of Great (as you can in 3). Photo 5 is at the shore, but as you can see, not a rocky shore. So, it's not always easy, depending on season and age.

Of course, given my success on the Sparrowhawk, I'm psychologically prepared for someone to tell me my IDs of these photos is wrong. But I hope they help the discussion anyway.

And a final message to Arodris: I hope you enjoyed your visit to Japan. Although I'm not Japanese, I've had a happy life here, and always hope visitors have a good time. And when I started birding here, I also found a lot of Temminck's (later revised), and a lot of other rareties (later revised). It's easy to see the birds you hope or expect to see in a location; though I'm wiser now, I still do it sometimes. It's disappointing when it turns out not to be correct. But on the bright side, it's always a reason to go again.

You are getting me looking through my photos from my last trip now double checking my cormorants!

I found this one from Kamakura which I had down as containing both?

A = Great Cormorant due to that bronze sheen you mention and the big square yellow patch.

B = Japanese/Temminck's Cormorant - Greenish sheen and sharply tapering bill patch.
 

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You are getting me looking through my photos from my last trip now double checking my cormorants!

I found this one from Kamakura which I had down as containing both?

A = Great Cormorant due to that bronze sheen you mention and the big square yellow patch.

B = Japanese/Temminck's Cormorant - Greenish sheen and sharply tapering bill patch.

I don't think so. All Great in my opinion. You would need a much better photo to get a solid Temminck's ID out of those. And unless you get super photos in light you are sure of, I don't think (as I said above) that the sheen is all that helpful. I can't get a 'sheen' for either bird from your photo, and the green on my roosting bird in the previous post might be an artefact.

As I tried to say, there's quite a lot of variety anyway - Greats can have huge white heads - like the two I am attaching to this post from my local area - or they can (briefly I think, but I don't have the experience) very black heads with little yellow or white, like 4 and 5 in my post #2. I don't think that you will find Temminck's in the kind of location shown in your photo, or mixed in with a lot of Greats except accidentally (e.g. typhoon).

But in the the two posts I made here, I have reached the limits of my expertise. I hope someone with greater knowledge will join in. I always thought it wasn't easy to see Temminck's, but having reviewed my photos as I said, I have seen even fewer than I thought. I suspect that a very high percentage of Internet search Temminck's are in fact Great.
 

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I don't think so. All Great in my opinion. You would need a much better photo to get a solid Temminck's ID out of those. And unless you get super photos in light you are sure of, I don't think (as I said above) that the sheen is all that helpful.

I feel to be seeing plenty of Japanese Cormorants here.

In addition to the bronze sheen, Great Cormorants have broad black edges to scapulars and wing coverts, giving the upperparts a scaly look. I'm pretty sure I can see greenish sheens on several of these birds, but no black fringes, so no scaly look.

I think that #1 has too much yellow right up behind the eye for Great (as do one or two other individuals), and a strong green sheen to the upperparts.

I also think that #2 has yellow in the lower mandible, which would wrong for Great.

However, I might well be dealing with artefacts in this photo, my reasoning might be flawed, or both!

Steve
 

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