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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Nikon Premier SE porro, old, update technolgy? (2 Viewers)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooreorless View Post
"As far as the "feckless" remark, don't be offended, that was an inside joke about my friend Steve, who nearly every time after I remark about any problem that I've experienced with a binocular that we both have tried will chime in after me and say, "I don't have any problems with this binocular" or something to that effect."

I have no problem with what Mark paid for his Swarovision. He got an excellent deal. I am glad he loves it.
"You never disappoint! :) "

Brock you do not understand, you must of never of read many of Mark's posts, he did get a good deal. So did JG on a HD.
 
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You never disappoint! :)

Yes, indeed, cost is a consideration. But when we're talking about state of the art, that's not the first consideration. As I said, the SV just does it. It's a lifer. The SE is still number two for me, but in the field the SV rocks. Bird after bird, it just does it. You forget you're using binoculars. It's incredibly forgiving: just slap it to your face and have a look. Wonderful when you're chasing warblers around.

And yes, you do need to look through it before you call it overpriced. Swaro nails it with these things, and that's worth quite a bit. Amortized over the rest of my life, I'd call it a bargain.

Mark

That could be something like $50-$58 a year. Even I could go that.;)
 
3 best binos I've ever owned were Nikon EII 8x30, Nikon SE 8x32, and Swarovision 8.5x42. The latter clinches it in terms of "ocular-comfort" wide-angle, sharp view (waterproof and tough to boot), the SE in terms of 3D and contrast (albeit restricted FOV), and the EII in terms of widest-angle plus easy-view. Take yer pick, based on your wallet, and your waterproofing requirements. All are superb instruments that will not disappoint. Swarovski in Europe have superb customer service, whereas Nikon don't. As I understand it, Nikon in the U.S. have superior customer service too.

I pretty much agree with you except I would have to throw the Zeiss 8x32 FL in there above the two Nikon's. I have the Swarovision 8.5x42 and it is the best binocular I have ever seen. Comfortable and just amazing optics. If you don't believe me see how fast they are selling on E-bay.
 
Here's the problem with chasing "state-of-the-art". In two or three years, today's state-of-the-art optics becomes "yesterday's news" when "this year's model" supersedes it. Just ask Dennis in a couple months! :)

That's what I like about high quality porros - they were state of the art before there were p-coatings, aluminum coatings, sliver coatings, dielectric coatings, and some even had ED glass before ED glass was necessary to control CA even in 7x roofs.

Slap on the latest AR coatings on yesterday's premium porro designs, add ED glass if it's over 8x, and you've got state of the art. That simple.

But hey, how are the CEOs and top execs going to make their seven figure salaries and buy their big yachts and beach homes on the French Riviera or how would German and Austrian workers make the highest wages and have the best benefit packages in Europe if optics companies reverted to making $499-$799 premium porros that were 99.99% as good as the best of the best state of the art roofs and included a free umbrella hat to use them in the rain?

That's the real story, its all about money, the rest is "smoke and mirrors".

Brock the Cynic
 
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I pretty much agree with you except I would have to throw the Zeiss 8x32 FL in there above the two Nikon's. I have the Swarovision 8.5x42 and it is the best binocular I have ever seen. Comfortable and just amazing optics. If you don't believe me see how fast they are selling on E-bay.

Dennis,
It is hard keeping up with you! Didn't you get rid of your Swarovision 8.5 x 42?
Did you get another one since then?

Bob
 
Here's the problem with chasing "state-of-the-art". In two or three years, today's state-of-the-art optics becomes "yesterday's news" when "this year's model" supersedes it. Just ask Dennis in a couple months! :)

That's what I like about high quality porros - they were state of the art before there were p-coatings, aluminum coatings, sliver coatings, dielectric coatings, and some even had ED glass before ED glass was necessary to control CA even in 7x roofs.

Slap on the latest AR coatings on yesterday's premium porro designs, add ED glass if it's over 8x, and you've got state of the art. That simple.

But hey, how are the CEOs and top execs going to make their seven figure salaries and buy their big yachts and beach homes on the Rivera or how would German and Austrian workers make the highest wages and have the best benefit packages in Europe if optics companies reverted to making $499-$799 premium porros that were 99.99% as good as the best of the best state of the art roofs and included a free umbrella hat to use them in the rain?

That's the real story, its all about money, the rest is "smoke and mirrors".

Brock the Cynic

Here's my take on it. You get started on a quest for what works best for you and for some that quest is short, for others it's longer, and for Dennis it's clearly neverending. He's in it for the quest, not the holy grail at the end of it. He sells holy grails like cheap tourist trinkets.

But for most of us certain bins come along that just defy much improvement. For me, the 8x32 SE is one. Could I live happily with it for the rest of my life? Yup. Will I? Quite likely.

The SV is another. Will I live happily with it for the rest of my life? I really think so. From here on out, my eyes will be the weak link in the optics chain anyway (mooreorless: I am hoping to amortize them for $50 a year rather than $58, but you never know ;)). Will something "better" come along? Maybe, but I don't think I'll much care. I'll be out looking at birds.

The 8x32 FL? Hmm, not so much. There's room for improvement there. And I do want a sub-twenty ounce mid-size lifer. Still waiting on that one.

As for compacts--well, let's not rehash that one.

So I do think you finish the quest at some point. I know I'm nearing the end of it. And that means I'll be happily birding for 40 years (god willing) with these things.

Ah, just heard my first Blackpoll of the year--gotta go.

Mark
 
"So I do think you finish the quest at some point. I know I'm nearing the end of it. And that means I'll be happily birding for 40 years (god willing) with these things."

I hope so too. That would be about $41.;) $.11 a day.
 
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I pretty much agree with you except I would have to throw the Zeiss 8x32 FL in there

Good point, by all accounts, but I've never seen the FL 8x32, Dennis....don't tempt me!

But hey, how are the CEOs and top execs going to make their seven figure salaries and buy their big yachts and beach homes on the Rivera or how would German and Austrian workers make the highest wages and have the best benefit packages in Europe if optics companies reverted to making $499-$799 premium porros that were 99.99% as good as the best of the best state of the art roofs and included a free umbrella hat to use them in the rain?

That's the real story, its all about money, the rest is "smoke and mirrors".

Brock the Cynic

Brock, do you mean that they're not actually committed to a competitive market ensuring highest quality to informed consumers, at the lowest possible prices? Darn, just when I'd given up Socialism...;)
 
Good point, by all accounts, but I've never seen the FL 8x32, Dennis....don't tempt me!



Brock, do you mean that they're not actually committed to a competitive market ensuring highest quality to informed consumers, at the lowest possible prices? Darn, just when I'd given up Socialism...;)

See my PM. Don't want to get censored for speaking the truth again.

As far as my previous statement, I was using hyperbole to make my point. I do believe if the Top Three moved their operations offshore, trained the workers properly, and had some European QC personnel and optical technicians on site, they could produce close to the same quality optics at half the cost.

Of course, they would also have to use glass that was produced elsewhere. The Schott glass alone even before it's configured costs more than an entire mid-priced bin.

I'm not disputing the quality of the optics or engineering, only the motives to keep them made in Europe.

Meopta, Leupold, Nikon, Minox, and others have proven that it's possible to produce fine quality optics outside of Europe.

Brock
 
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Here's my take on it. You get started on a quest for what works best for you and for some that quest is short, for others it's longer, and for Dennis it's clearly neverending. He's in it for the quest, not the holy grail at the end of it. He sells holy grails like cheap tourist trinkets.

But for most of us certain bins come along that just defy much improvement. For me, the 8x32 SE is one. Could I live happily with it for the rest of my life? Yup. Will I? Quite likely.

The SV is another. Will I live happily with it for the rest of my life? I really think so. From here on out, my eyes will be the weak link in the optics chain anyway (mooreorless: I am hoping to amortize them for $50 a year rather than $58, but you never know ;)). Will something "better" come along? Maybe, but I don't think I'll much care. I'll be out looking at birds.

The 8x32 FL? Hmm, not so much. There's room for improvement there. And I do want a sub-twenty ounce mid-size lifer. Still waiting on that one.

As for compacts--well, let's not rehash that one.

So I do think you finish the quest at some point. I know I'm nearing the end of it. And that means I'll be happily birding for 40 years (god willing) with these things.

Ah, just heard my first Blackpoll of the year--gotta go.

Mark

Mark,

We are living in the Golden Age of Roof Optics. From everything I've read about the SV EL, you have as good quality a bin that can be made.

Looking for something better than the SV EL in two or three years will be chasing "ghosts". From here on in, it's only incremental improvement for higher prices with Swaros. Ironically, by seeking optical perfection, they have boxed themselves into a corner.

I think they realized that, and it's one reason they are bringing out the CL series to reach a new market segment.

This point of diminishing return$ for incremental change$ (a phrase that's catching on, not just in sports optics, but in other areas such as fiber optics) was already true of the Leica Ultravids and Zeiss FLs (Zeiss FLs could use less astigmatism, but if that's truly the company's design philosophy, as Steve Ingraham contended, then that might not happen).

None-the-less, the Big Three companies will want to continue to make more money and that means some new "bells and whistles" down the line for higher prices. Leica and Zeiss might even be forced to come out with an open bridge design to offer something different enough to justify charging higher prices.

As long as you don't fall for the "Siren's Song," the SV EL should serve you well for a lifetime.

I do think some people can be contented with just one bin. Or at least one full sized bin. Others will be forever chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Although I have taken pot shots at Dennis along with others, because he gets really enthused about a bin and says its the best he's ever seen and then a month or two later, repeats this process, but for him and others who keep on the Quest, "becoming" may be superior to "being".

It's the thrill of the hunt, the excitement of the chase that matters more than final contentment.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I'm looking for contentment rather than the excitement of the chase. I'm also too poor these days to keep up with the latest and greatest optics, and I really do prefer porros.

So I'm also looking for Final Line-up. I doubt if I will find contentment in one bin, because I like midsized binoculars for their convenience and wide FsOV but also need a full sized bin, because of the number of cloudy days we have. The midsized bins just don't cut it for me anymore. Could be my eyes more than the bins.

If I lived in a location with sunny, dry warm weather year round, I could be content with an 8x30 EII and 10x35 EII for the rest of my life.

But given my climate and aging eyes, I will need to supplement them with full sized counterparts that I have yet to identify. Given the dearth of high quality porros, I may be forced to buy roofs, and if I do, they are going to cost me an arm and a leg to match the image quality of what I have.

Here's what Henry had to say about the 8x30 EII on BF in 2005:

"I think at least in part owing to these excellent results I’ve found the subjective “sharpness” in the center of the field of the EII to be about as good as I have seen in any binocular and better than any roof I have tried other than the 8X42 FL. This particular specimen looks a tiny bit sharper and a tiny bit higher contrast than my particular 8x32 SE."

I agree with his comparison of the 8x30 EII with the 8x32 SE, and my 8x30 EII is also as sharp as any roof I've tried including the EDG, LX, and EL. Sharper than the 8x30 SLCNeu. I don't doubt that the 8x42 and 8x56 FLs would beat it, but I wouldn't buy either of them because of the astigmatism.

So at least part of my Quest is over, the midsized range. In the full sized range the Quest continues...

Sir Galahad
 
As long as you don't fall for the "Siren's Song," the SV EL should serve you well for a lifetime.

I do think some people can be contented with just one bin. Or at least one full sized bin. Others will be forever chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Although I have taken pot shots at Dennis along with others, because he gets really enthused about a bin and says its the best he's ever seen and then a month or two later, repeats this process, but for him and others who keep on the Quest, "becoming" may be superior to "being".

It's the thrill of the hunt, the excitement of the chase that matters more than final contentment.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I'm looking for contentment rather than the excitement of the chase. I'm also too poor these days to keep up with the latest and greatest optics, and I really do prefer porros.

So I'm also looking for Final Line-up. I doubt if I will find contentment in one bin, because I like midsized binoculars for their convenience and wide FsOV but also need a full sized bin, because of the number of cloudy days we have. The midsized bins just don't cut it for me anymore. Could be my eyes more than the bins.

If I lived in a location with sunny, dry warm weather year round, I could be content with an 8x30 EII and 10x35 EII for the rest of my life.


Sir Galahad

Having birded, blissfully and quite ignorantly, with a Pentax 8x42 WP for ten years (sharp bin, by the way), I looked into upgrades, especially looking for lighter weight. Four years later, and who knows how many bins, I'm back to a do-everything full-size, along with two mids and three compacts. Well, that and the Zen 8x43 ED2 which I will either sell or give to my sister. It's a great bin, but I don't really need it.

Contentment is indeed a big part of it, and the technology has clearly reached the point where if you are discontent it's more your own psychological problem than the binoculars' deficits. Scientists study this stuff and have shown that neither increasing choice nor the latest and greatest have any real bearing on happiness. In fact, both can lead to greater discontent if you can't stop chasing the ultimate, which really only exists as some ideal construct. The consumer society is pretty much designed to induce discontent.

But there's something to be said for high standards, too, and it's not like top-drawer binoculars are as silly as cars that park themselves or fashionable jeans that have been sandblasted and ripped at the knees by the toiling workers of China. There's high fashion, and then there's high function.

Here's the deal: if you don't feel like spending the money on an alpha roof, don't. Find an SE or even a Chinese clone and be happy. I could be happy with those. Is the SV better overall? Yes, I think it is. Is it worth the difference? I don't know. The way I figure it, being hooked on bins is better than being hooked on cars the way I was in my youth (and still am once in a while when I drool on the fender of a Porsche Boxster. I talk myself out of it this way: "Do you know what a set of those tires cost!?! Oh, that's right...half an SV at least").

Can you tell it's an all-day rain here? Time to read a book.

Mark
 
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Dennis,
It is hard keeping up with you! Didn't you get rid of your Swarovision 8.5 x 42?
Did you get another one since then?

Bob

No. I still have Swarovision. I can't find anything better! It is too darn good. Try one. They are made by aliens or something. I have never seen such a transparent image.
 
Mark,

We are living in the Golden Age of Roof Optics. From everything I've read about the SV EL, you have as good quality a bin that can be made.

Looking for something better than the SV EL in two or three years will be chasing "ghosts". From here on in, it's only incremental improvement for higher prices with Swaros. Ironically, by seeking optical perfection, they have boxed themselves into a corner.

I think they realized that, and it's one reason they are bringing out the CL series to reach a new market segment.

This point of diminishing return$ for incremental change$ (a phrase that's catching on, not just in sports optics, but in other areas such as fiber optics) was already true of the Leica Ultravids and Zeiss FLs (Zeiss FLs could use less astigmatism, but if that's truly the company's design philosophy, as Steve Ingraham contended, then that might not happen).

None-the-less, the Big Three companies will want to continue to make more money and that means some new "bells and whistles" down the line for higher prices. Leica and Zeiss might even be forced to come out with an open bridge design to offer something different enough to justify charging higher prices.

As long as you don't fall for the "Siren's Song," the SV EL should serve you well for a lifetime.

I do think some people can be contented with just one bin. Or at least one full sized bin. Others will be forever chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Although I have taken pot shots at Dennis along with others, because he gets really enthused about a bin and says its the best he's ever seen and then a month or two later, repeats this process, but for him and others who keep on the Quest, "becoming" may be superior to "being".

It's the thrill of the hunt, the excitement of the chase that matters more than final contentment.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I'm looking for contentment rather than the excitement of the chase. I'm also too poor these days to keep up with the latest and greatest optics, and I really do prefer porros.

So I'm also looking for Final Line-up. I doubt if I will find contentment in one bin, because I like midsized binoculars for their convenience and wide FsOV but also need a full sized bin, because of the number of cloudy days we have. The midsized bins just don't cut it for me anymore. Could be my eyes more than the bins.

If I lived in a location with sunny, dry warm weather year round, I could be content with an 8x30 EII and 10x35 EII for the rest of my life.

But given my climate and aging eyes, I will need to supplement them with full sized counterparts that I have yet to identify. Given the dearth of high quality porros, I may be forced to buy roofs, and if I do, they are going to cost me an arm and a leg to match the image quality of what I have.

Here's what Henry had to say about the 8x30 EII on BF in 2005:

"I think at least in part owing to these excellent results I’ve found the subjective “sharpness” in the center of the field of the EII to be about as good as I have seen in any binocular and better than any roof I have tried other than the 8X42 FL. This particular specimen looks a tiny bit sharper and a tiny bit higher contrast than my particular 8x32 SE."

I agree with his comparison of the 8x30 EII with the 8x32 SE, and my 8x30 EII is also as sharp as any roof I've tried including the EDG, LX, and EL. Sharper than the 8x30 SLCNeu. I don't doubt that the 8x42 and 8x56 FLs would beat it, but I wouldn't buy either of them because of the astigmatism.

So at least part of my Quest is over, the midsized range. In the full sized range the Quest continues...

Sir Galahad

The Swarovision is the only roof prism I have seen that is BETTER optically than Nikon SE's or EII's. I would say the FL's are as good though but not better.
 
Good point, by all accounts, but I've never seen the FL 8x32, Dennis....don't tempt me!



Brock, do you mean that they're not actually committed to a competitive market ensuring highest quality to informed consumers, at the lowest possible prices? Darn, just when I'd given up Socialism...;)

Try them Sancho. You will like them. Light compact little buggers too. All the FL's are darn good.
 
The Swarovision is the only roof prism I have seen that is BETTER optically than Nikon SE's or EII's. I would say the FL's are as good though but not better.

Dennis:

I do agree with you in your summation of how great the Nikons are. The new
Swarovision has stepped up with the newest and I think they have done a very nice
job also, and rank as the best.
The Zeiss FL is very good, and I agree with you also here, they as being quite good, but the Nikon SE will be better at the edges, with the field flattener lens. The SE was and is still very stiff competition for any new binocular in todays marketplace.

Jerry
 
Interesting how this type of thread re-appears. Interesting how the 8x32 SE ends up being discussed versus the top Euro-glasses, now costing somewhere north of $2000. Guess that should say something right there.

My take:

If i might be or will be in rain/snow, or want one pair that also has aperture for astronomy use also, I grab one of my old leica or Zeiss roofs. Otherwise it is the 8x32 SE.

Actually, my astonomy binoculars are the 10x50 SE (only use at night, for my eyes too much CA during the day, YMMV).

I assume the German/Austrian uber glass currently sold has something going for it that is wonderful. Have not looked through any of the current ones. For the price I hope they embody significant advances in optical tech;)

Separate from that assumption; porro designs can achieve very high optical quality for much less cost. The roof design has two advantages I think:

1. Water proofing. It is my understanding that only individual focus porros can be made truly waterproof.

2. Many people prefer the ergonomics of roofs, and often, all other things being equal, roofs can be designed smaller in size than a porro of similar aperture.

I again do not know about the current crop of high end roofs; but in the history of the roof design, optical quality advances have been done to counter the comparative optical disadvantage of the roof design compared to a high quality porro.

Two negatives of the 8x32 SE:

If you are very sensitive to CA, or used to the new rare glass/CA corrected alphas, (or the old Swift Audubon 8.5x44 ED porros :t: ) you may see very slight CA during conditions where it is likely.

I have read that some folks experience a rolling blackout when panning. I do not experience it, but it has been widely reported so it probably is a problem for some.
 
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