Jungle Crow complex (1 Viewer)

Larry Sweetland · Jul 9, 2009

I've just noticed that the IOC list recognises 3 species in this complex. Can someone please outline their ranges for me? I'd especially like to know if birds in NE China fall within Eastern Jungle Crow under this arrangement.

Many thanks for any clarification,

Larry

Richard Klim · Jul 9, 2009

Larry,

In IOC's split (proposed by Rasmussen & Anderton 2005), Eastern & Indian Jungle Crows are monotypic, with ranges as follows:

Corvus levaillantii - from extreme SE Nepal eastwards through NE India to Burma, Thailand & N Malay Pen, also Andaman Is
Corvus culminatus - Peninsular India & Sri Lanka, north to lowlands of Nepal

All other subspecies are retained within Large-billed Crow C macrorhynchos (including mandschuricus in NE China).

BirdLife International splits Jungle Crow C levaillantii, but including culminatus.

Rasmussen & Anderton 2005 actually suggested a further split of C japonensis (which would include mandschuricus), presumably leaving C macrorhynchos (including philippinus) restricted to Malaysia, Indonesia & Philippines.

Richard

rockfowl · Jul 9, 2009

Hi Richard,

I haven't followed this so it's pretty unclear to me. Brazil states that the split has been proposed giving Japanese Crow C. japonensis (including connectens and osai ) and Large-billed Crow C. macrorhynchos (including mandschuricus and colonorum)

Confused!

Mark

dalat · Jul 9, 2009

Hi,

the Robson SE-Asia 2008 edition gives:
Large-Billed Crow japonensis
Eastern Jungle Crow levaillantii
Southern Jungle Crow macrorhynchos (including Indochina, though stating that the Indochina population is debated, maybe being Eastern)

Florian

Richard Klim · Jul 9, 2009

Yes Mark, it is indeed confusing.

My understanding is that Rasmussen & Anderton suggested splitting all the northern subspecies as C japonensis (including the forms intermedius & tibetosinensis relevant to their field guide). This actually reflects the grouping proposed by Martens et al (2000) tabled in Dickinson, Dekker, Eck & Somadikarta 2004 (Systematic notes on Asian birds. 45. Types of the Corvidae):
http://www.repository.naturalis.nl/document/43939 (p123-124)

Mark Brazil (2009) mentions a narrower potential split of C japonensis (restricted to the 3 forms which occur in Japan).

Dickinson, Eck & Martens 2004 (Systematic notes on Asian birds. 44. A preliminary review of the Corvidae) includes a detailed review of possible treatments involving up to 7 species, including further potential splits of C philippinus and C osai (including connectens):
http://www.repository.naturalis.nl/document/43938 (p96-102)

Implementing all the above-mentioned possible splits would give:

C japonensis (monotypic)
C osai (including connectens)
C intermedius (including mandschuricus, colonorum, tibetosinensis)
C culminatus (monotypic)
C levaillantii (monotypic)
C macrorhynchos (monotypic)
C philippinus (monotypic)

But clearly there's some way to go before consensus is reached on a definitive arrangement...

Richard

rockfowl · Jul 9, 2009

Thanks Richard,

Some way to go then!

Richard Klim · Jul 9, 2009

It'll be interesting to see the arrangement adopted for HBW14 when published later this year (Corvidae authors: dos Anjos, Debus, Madge & Marzluff). Anyone had a preview?

Richard

Larry Sweetland · Jul 10, 2009

Thanks folks, that simple huh?

chowchilla · Jul 10, 2009

Larry Wheatland said:
Thanks folks, that simple huh?

As if.... So Larry, did you manage to squeeze another tick out of that muddle?

:-O

Richard Klim · Jul 10, 2009

Larry Wheatland said:
Thanks folks, that simple huh?

...and I'm guessing it's not in the front running for your bird of the trip.

Richard

Daniel Philippe · Jul 10, 2009

Richard Klim said:
Implementing all the above-mentioned possible splits would give:

C japonensis (monotypic)

C osai (including connectens)

C intermedius (including mandschuricus, colonorum, tibetosinensis)

C culminatus (monotypic)

C levaillantii (monotypic)

C macrorhynchos (monotypic)

C philippinus (monotypic)

When I lived in South-east Asia – nineties and early twenties - life was easy, we had only 2 black crows : the Large-billed Corvus macrorhynchos and the Slender-billed C. enca. Today the first one could be up to seven species, what about the second one ?

Richard Klim · Jul 10, 2009

Daniel Philippe said:
When I lived in South-east Asia – nineties and early twenties - life was easy, we had only 2 black crows : the Large-billed Corvus macrorhynchos and the Slender-billed C. enca. Today the first one could be up to seven species...

...or maybe even more: Rasmussen comments "intermedius and tibetosinensis differ markedly in both call-type and plumage, and themselves may represent two species, although they are said to intergrade in C Himalayas". :eek!:

Daniel Philippe said:
...what about the second one ?

Daniel, it's your turn to make the first bid.

Richard

Daniel Philippe · Jul 10, 2009

Richard Klim said:
Daniel, it's your turn to make the first bid.

Well, I would guess from the literature that up to 5 ssp groups could be recognized:

- C. (e.) enca with compilator, mangoli and celebensis
- C. (e.) violaceus, monotypic
- C. (e.) pusillus, monotypic
- C. (e.) sierramadrensis, monotypic
- C. (e.) samarensis, monotypic

but I am not so sure.

Richard Klim · Jul 10, 2009

Daniel Philippe said:
Well, I would guess from the literature that up to 5 ssp groups could be recognized

Slender-billed Crow is unfortunately off the radar from within my rather introspective flat-earth Holarctic comfort zone - so for me it's a completely unknown mythical and exotic creature.

But Rheindt & Hutchinson 2007 [A photoshoot odyssey through the confused avian taxonomy of Seran and Buru (southern Moluccas) - BirdingASIA 7] commented:

"We assume that a thorough analysis of vocal data would demonstrate species status for most of the current races in both C. violaceus and C. enca [my emphasis]. So until such a work has been presented, we can only urge birders to tape those crows in the field and be aware of impending splits."

At this rate we'll soon be splitting the subspecies...

Richard

Larry Sweetland · Jul 11, 2009

chowchilla said:
As if.... So Larry, did you manage to squeeze another tick out of that muddle?:-O

Rather shamefully a mumbled YES, as I've recently gone over to using the IOC list, more in frustration at the Clements list appearing to ignore just about everyone else (as my half-baked, less than half-informed layman's mind currently sees it.) Nothing to do with the greater number of splits of course

.

Richard's guess at it not quite making the top 399 out of the trip's 400 new birds is bang on though!

chowchilla · Jul 11, 2009

Larry Wheatland said:
Rather shamefully a mumbled YES, as I've recently gone over to using the IOC list, more in frustration at the Clements list appearing to ignore just about everyone else (as my half-baked, less than half-informed layman's mind currently sees it.) Nothing to do with the greater number of splits of course .

Richard's guess at it not quite making the top 399 out of the trip's 400 new birds is bang on though!

Funny what you say about Clements... Phil Gregory of Cassowary House hates the way that they (in his words) prevaricate forever over possible splits and other revisions. Mind you he does do consultancy for the IOC...

Richard Klim · Jul 11, 2009

Larry Wheatland said:
Richard's guess at it not quite making the top 399 out of the trip's 400 new birds is bang on though!

Well, if all the possible splits and sub-splits are considered (see also post #12), it probably deserves to be on your shortlist for scientific name of the trip:

Corvus (((macrorhynchos) japonensis) intermedius) colonorum mandschuricus

Richard B

Markus Lagerqvist · Apr 17, 2010

Richard Klim said:
Implementing all the above-mentioned possible splits would give:

C japonensis (monotypic)

C osai (including connectens)

C intermedius (including mandschuricus, colonorum, tibetosinensis)

C culminatus (monotypic)

C levaillantii (monotypic)

C macrorhynchos (monotypic)

C philippinus (monotypic)

Richard

Has anyone heard any suggestions for English names for these?

Maybe something like this?

C. japonensis - Japanese Crow?
C. osai - Ryukyu Crow?
C. intermedius - ???
C. culminatus - Indian Jungle Crow
C. levaillantii - Indochinese Jungle Crow?
C. macrorhynchos - Sunda Jungle Crow?
C. philippinus - Philippine Jungle Crow?

Richard Klim · Apr 17, 2010

English names

Markus Lagerqvist said:
Has anyone heard any suggestions for English names for these?

Maybe something like this?

C. japonensis - Japanese Crow?
C. osai - Ryukyu Crow?
C. intermedius - ???

I already use 'Japanese Crow' (also used by Brazil 2009) and 'Ryukyu Crow' in my own checklist.

Taking post #12 into account, potentially splits intermedius further. I've provisionally used C (m) intermedius 'Himalayan Large-billed Crow' (monotypic) and C (m) colonorum 'Eastern Large-billed Crow' (incl mandshuricus, tibetosinensis) – clunky and unimaginative, I know!

Richard

Jacana · Dec 5, 2010

I'm still battling with my Clements to IOC conversion, can anyone help me untangle the Large-billed/Jungle Crow ranges in Thailand. As I see it, Large-billed is at least in the North, And Jungle Crow is in the West and South, Where do the Central/Bangkok birds lie, and the eastern populations?

Jungle Crow complex (1 Viewer)

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