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juv. chat, Wales (1 Viewer)

Samuel Perfect

Well-known member
Taken earlier this week (17/7/13) on the edge of some heather moorland in west Wales.

My first assumption was juvenile Whinchat as it was closely accompanied by a pair of Whinchats.

1st CY birds look relatively easy to separate from Stonechats after their post-juvenile moult but I'm struggling to find reliable features for separating fledglings at this age.

A supercilium seems to be coming through but it's not as clear as on other pictures of Whinchats of the same age that I've been looking at.

Any help as always much appreciated,
 

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Priamry-projection is a consistent difference between these two in full-grown birds when you're confused by plumage: it's about half the length of the tertials in Stonechat, three-quarters in Whinchat (and somewhere in between in Siberian Stonechat).
 
On plumage alone...strong rufous underparts, contrasting pale supercillium, white speckling on the mantle all point towards juv.Whinchat. Concerning the supposed pp difference between the two species..I can't comment.

Cheers
 
Ken, the bird has an all-dark tail...

Smiths..the only ''darker'' part of the tail that I can discern is up to where the pp overlaps. Assuming the tail is closed? then it would be difficult to discern the amount of paler contrast that might be visible in the uppertail, particularly so on this shot, which Is not Ideal for comparison purposes. Having trawled the web looking at ''this aspect'', there would appear to be a degree of variability for both.
 

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I disagree, Ken. It takes a lot of inventivity to explain away the characters that point to Stonechat. On the other hand, I see nothing that indicates Whinchat here; a pale supercilium is not that unusual in Stonechat, at least on the continent.

See attachment.
 

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This is a juv. bird presumably this we can agree on? And as such...It's pp and tail might not be fully formed? It's not just one feature that I'm questioning, It's the whole package! This image although less than perfect for a 100% ID, IMO shows more rubetra than torquatus....Of course Infallibility is not an option..although some might differ.
 
ChipsAhoys,

Sounds like I completely misunderstood what you meant in post #7.

It takes a lot of inventivity to explain away the characters that point to Stonechat.

...which are...?

I thought you meant there was nothing in Peter's editing that point towards Stonechat. With your new post it seems you agree with Stonechat, therefore I obviously missed something. My English isn't as good as I thought...
 
No, I don't agree with anything. I don't know what it is, as I find photos of juvs of these two species very confusing (much easier in the field). So I'd like to know what features people are using to ID this as stonechat - and no-one is providing any.

Have you seen Peter's (smiths) editing/collage in post #6????

Edit: Now your post has disappeared...
 
My English isn't as good as I thought...
English good! Silly me hadn't noticed that Mr Smiths had written helpful stuff all over the photo - har har :)
Given individual variation and the vagaries of fuzzy photos, etc., the only feature there that I'd find convincing is the primary projection - but all useful. Thanks for pointing me at it! - and for assuming that I can't read rather than that I'd simply missed it ;)
 
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This is a juv. bird presumably this we can agree on? And as such...It's pp and tail might not be fully formed?

You have answered your own question: pp and tail. If primaries are still growing, so should the tail, which does not seem to be the case here. I doubt there are many passerines that finish tail moult before growing their outer primaries. A not fully grown juv Whinchat looks like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/farmer55/9116122295/
 
I doubt there are many passerines that finish tail moult before growing their outer primaries.
Eh? If stonechats are anything like most paserines, tail won't be moulted until autumn after the bird's 1st year of life (2nd calendar year) - so tail moult's not an issue here (or did you mean the growing of the juvenile tail?). Anyway, I take it that Ken's (entirely valid) point is... can one be sure that the relative-primary-projection criterion is safe to use on a newly-fledged bird given that primaries, tertials and tail may all still be growing and thus that their ratios may not be the same as an adult's? I don't find any of the other pro-stonechat criteria that've been adduced here fully convincing, so I'd certainly ike to hear views on that.
 
To quote the very first post:

"My first assumption was juvenile Whinchat as it was closely accompanied by a pair of Whinchats."

Andy M.
 
Thanks all for your help with the ID,

Unfortunately, I'm struggling with internet connection at the moment so can't contribute as much as I'd like to the thread.

I've attached another photo of the same bird in almost exactly the same pose (all other pics are virtually identical). However, it does seem to show a paler outer tail feather.

Thanks,
 

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