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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

a couple of birds (2 Viewers)

LOL, well this is certainly the place to come if you are feeling a bit insecure about a picture.
Thanks very much for the kind and encouraging words. :t:

I think I have found a compromise with the background of the duck picture. Most of it is not factual and the technique is very scruffy in a controled disorganised kind of way.

colleenc, I forgot to say thank's for the Birge Harrison book recommendation. I've not finished it but it is lovely to read.

hunterpaul,
I'm pleased you said that about the colour. One of my main aims recently has been to try to describe colour with graphite. I thought it worked ok with the chaffinch so tried a predominantly black bird (Ring ouzel) to see if I could get the black and white contrasts while still including detail.
As the Robin is so famous for its red breast I thought it a good opportunity to draw it grey and see if it would still look red breast-ish.
 
interesting idea to imitate colour with monochrome, obviously I'm biased, but I don't think it is possible, monochrome being a part of the colour scale. It's like trying to play a piece of music with different notes. At first glance, I thought the robin was a black redstart (obviously, looking properly after it is clearly a monochrome robin), as I read the breats and the back as the same colour, whereas in reality, they are just the same tone. I've always wondered about using monochrome to describe different colours of the same tonal values on a bird. I remember drawing woodpigeons in black and white, using hatching in different directions to at least separate the breast from the back, which tonally is very similar.

Being honest, I find monochrome very difficult - I'm ok with black paint, pencil and biro, but line drawing is witchcraft to me.
 
I do know what you mean Nick, but as someone who leans towards impressionism I'm surprised to hear you say that. hunterpaul very nicely said " you can almost see the colour" not you can see it. I'd be concerned if he had.
I am not drawing red with grey I have tried to describe it. I agree that it is a bit like “trying to play a piece of music with different notes", but only a bit and if we didn’t we would all be playing the same songs or probably have packed up and gone home. There is more to it than just trying to the high notes. I like to learn new skills and news ways of doing them, to me. I know that pencil drawings like these can get up some peoples noses and that's fine (and I quite like it too) but also being honest, having spent so much time in contemporary art, something as simple as using a pencil and paper from the corner shop to produce a picture is not a million miles from a folk song.
 
Like I said, it's interesting, and just because in my opinion it's impossible to describe colour in black and white doesn't mean it's not an idea worth pursuing. Attempting the impossible is a very commendable thing to do!
I hope you didn't misinterpret my comments as belittling, I genuinely find the idea intriguing, though my personal way of working is 'to describe the colour, just use the colour', it's fascinating to see a different approach. The only thing that gets up my nose is my finger, and really I should stop doing that as it's a terrible habit! ;-)
 
Lol, well I did find it a little belittling but that could be my own insecurities about the work. As it is new territory, to me, there is a certain amount of unease in it. The colour thing is just a part of what I am trying to do with the work and I was pleasantly surprised that hunterpaul had mentioned it. I always presumed it was one of those little bits we put in that no one will see but we know is there.

Thanks for the input, sometimes the best way we can see our work is through other peoples eye.
 
Sorry I came across that way then, certainly not my intention! Though it's clear we both work in very different ways, there is plenty I learn from looking at your work and I very much enjoyed both these new pieces - and the debate that followed, I wasn't trying to force my opinions upon you in any way, that would be a terribly rude thing of me to do.

Back to the debate, I wonder if it's the brain filling in what we know to be there with the colour. I've always wondered what a colourblind person may see in a painting for example, and I remember once discovering that I was capable of being pink/yellow colourblind, that was exciting!
 
solitaryVSong said:
Uh oh! I hope Alan is reading, with his sketchbook near!;)
Click to expand...

Actually I meant "isn't" instead of "is", but too late now.

Back to the serious debate and a slightly different perspective. I've always loved color. But as I've worked more in black and white I've come to think that black and white work can seem colorful.

But then I began to think that it's not so much that black and white is colorful as that what I like in color work is tonal contrast, almost as though I really see it as monochrome.

This is just a thought that's been rolling around in the back of my mind and maybe completely wrong!
 
I think sometimes colourful pieces can read very uncomfortably tonally, certainly, lots of colour is no reason for lack of tone. Black and white can certainly be vibrant.
 
Not to get off on a tangent here, especially on Mosca's thread, so this is the last I'll say.

As soon as I said that maybe the appeal of color might really be the appeal of tonal contrast I knew I was wrong. Tonal contrast and color are really two completely different things, at least to me.

I do think though that they are two of the most powerful aspects of art. And sometimes they seem so close that they're almost the same. Then they really seem to reinforce one another. But then you can have a monochromatic piece that is very vibrant but doesn't have the emotional impact of color or a powerful color piece that as Nick says is "uncomfortable tonally." And then they're not close to each other at all. Just two tremendously powerful but individual tools of artists.

Hope I haven't muddied the waters, or given anyone else the headache that I now have...........
 
nickderry said:
The only thing that gets up my nose is my finger, and really I should stop doing that as it's a terrible habit! ;-)
Click to expand...
one way to get the new and terrible MRSA bacterial infections that have morphed from hospitals to the general environment is to pick your nose where the dammed things live....so Nick better break that habit....

On the topic of tones, or what I call values, tho your drawings are really lovely, they leave me with a slight hankering for deeper values to make them live a bit more. If you do that you have a broader "palette of color" because you have more steps in value to use. I do find your work very appealing, but even more I'm impressed that you are reaching for more than what you can already do. IMHO this is the real sign of an artist,
 
Thanks for the comments and thoughts everyone, I appreciate them.

solitaryVSong, feel free posting here, it's not my thread so say whatever you like.


On the topic of tones, or what I call values, tho your drawings are really lovely, they leave me with a slight hankering for deeper values to make them live a bit more.
Click to expand...

I agree colleenc and it is something I'm struggling with at the moment. I think the answer could be in a few places. 1st, I am still new to this style of drawing (I think the robin is No11) so have a long way to go, 2nd I am struggling finding and learning about decent paper. The stuff I'm using at the moment punctures quite easily and so I'm not getting the depth of layers I would like, (but that could also be cause 1) and 3rd I think I could find more tonal value overall buy including a background in the work. My previous work has always been extremely quick, no more than ten mins on a picture, I am continuing the slower detailed process but would eventually like to meet somewhere in the middle.
If you have other suggestion or tips how you think the pictures could be improved please post them.

all information and tips are helpful.
 
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