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Warbler Eastern Saudi Arabia (2 Viewers)

I recieved this message from an UAE birder on the subject

We saw 130 Marsh Warblers in the UAE today and this bird looks fairly similar. However it appears to lack the olive green upperparts and buff-yellow underparts of Marsh and perhaps has a slightly-too-prominent supercilium. I would therefore go with Reed (Eastern / fuscus presumably) but for me the light does make it impossible to say for certain. Rump colour (if noted) would be another clue (should be warm brown in Reed at this time of year but more or less concolorous with mantle in Marsh).

Blyth's Reed is another possibility but it appears to lack the 'flattened head' of that species, and also the dark tip to the lower mandible.

But your UAE birder fails to say why this bird clearly lacks the long undertail coverts of an acro. This is a much better feature to look at on a bird thats partially in shadow and in strange light.

I'd be happy to say that this could be an Eastern Olivaceous (i've been struggling to find pics of EOW in spring - best i could do was http://www.fyldebirdclub.org/images/14eoliler.jpg), but the apparent size ond fullness of the tail still suggests Upcher's to me. The description of the tail movement is slightly ambiguous.

In the photos on your web page, its interesting that the tail looks contrastingly darker, almost blackish in all of the photos it is visible in, especially the head on shot second from bottom where the tail does not appear to be in shadow. Its hard to see the tertial spacing, and i found this to be an unreliable feature anyway, with many EOW showing the classic Upcher's spacing. Just the overall jizz of the bird suggests Upcher's to me.

We can rule out Booted Warbler on the seven primaries beyond the tertials (i think Booted has 5-6) and the prominent super in front of the eye and lacking behind the eye. PLus the jizz would seem wrong for that species. But then i suppose you have to think about Sykes's Warbler which i've never seen...

IMO this is almost certainly an Upcher's, but can't 100% rule out Eastern Olivaceous. Its certainly one of the two however, and is clearly not an acrocephalus.
 
I agree with you its a Hippolais - quite a few mails suggested (both through MEB and EBN) an acrocephalus but several went for Cetti's.
However I have a slight advantage I have seen both Upchers and Olivaceous within the last few days and spoken to Adrian about size plus have had the measuring stick out - I now think its could be a Booted Warbler cause it sure doesn't look like the others that I have been looking at both in the hand (ringing) and in the bush so to speak. The overall jizz is all wrong for either Olivaceous or Upcher's so I am going against the flow and sticking my head on the block I say Booted for this one.
 
Bizarre.

The fact that some people are suggesting Cetti's shows that people can be wrong.

As I said in my previous post, I have very recent experience of spring Sykes's, EOW and Upcher's.

Sykes's and EOW look incredibly similar to each other; the first Sykes's I saw was identified retrospectively on call, and had been down as EOW for three days.

This bird clearly has the correct wing structure for Upcher's, and in all photo's of the uppertail it looks dark with a narrow whitish outer tail feather. It has an enormous bill and is clearly a big bird. Olivaceous tends to have grey/bluish legs, Sykes's tends to have pinker legs (one bird we saw had quite bright pink legs); This bird does seem to have pinkish legs, which is at odds with the dark legs of Upcher's - to me the only anomalous feature.

Tail movements are pretty unique; the on Upcher's I saw I didn't see it, but Upcher's wings its tail. Sykes's dips its tail both above and below the horizontal, and also seems to flick it to the sides. Olivaceous dips it repeatedly down below the horizontal. Botted seems o have a nervous sideways jerk of its tail (from personal observations).

In summary, I'd say Upchers. If it's proven not to be, then Sykes's is the second probability.

Sean
 
Howard, Booted is a small neat tidy bird, confusable with a Phylloscopus!

This is a big stonking Hippo!

Yes - that´s the impression you get from these pic. Furthermore the obvious pale edginge to the secondaries ('wingpanel') is an elaeica (EOW), languida (Upcher´s) olivetorum (Olive-tree) and icterina Icterine) character. The bill gives the impression of being non caligata (Booted) or rama (Sykes´s) slender - and notice that the upper mandible is obviously down-curved near the tip, which you don´t see in that fashion in Booted or Sykes´s. Regarding the lower mandible pattern - all pale versus with a dark 'spot' at - or near the tip - usually all pale in elaeica and languida but with a 'spot' in caligata and rama - but not always in these two. One other character visible in the hand or in good images is how the emarginations of the primaries falls on the closed wing - at level or slightly behind the longest tip of the tertial (or secondarie tips) in elaeica and languida - well inside for caligata and rama which can be seen in Howards linked birds. But can we see that in AJ,s bird? I have myself some promblems seeing this for certain. However the above mentioned characters speaks negative for Booted or Sykes´s. The legs on the subject bird looks pale reddish-brown with darker grey feet - that would corresponde well with Booted - hence the name. ;)

JanJ
 
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This is getting good!

After checking, looks like i was wrong on the number of primaries beyond the tertials on Booted. They can have seven. Moral: always check more than one picture!

However, i had a feeling that Booted Warbler can show almost a small notch to the tail, whereas the mystery bird clearly has a slightly rounded tail. See these two Booteds (they are autumn birds but i don't think it should make a difference for this) which seem to support this.

http://www.scillybirding.co.uk/images/Bootedwarbler.jpg

http://www.birdsireland.com/images/2006/august/booted2.jpg

Hippolais warblers have taken up many trees worth of ID papers and correspondance in the journals. They can be a very tricky group! I'm going to have to resort to the unscientific view that it just looks too long for a Booted, with a large bill that has a completely pale lower mandible. Booted usually has a dark tip to the lower Check out:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i.../images?q=booted+warbler&gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en


Athough these ones do have a completely pale lower mandible...

http://www.kolkatabirds.com/bootedwarbler8cf.jpg

http://www.scillybirding.co.uk/images/Booted-4.jpg

However, i'm yet to find one with striking pale fringes to the secondaries and tertials, and they always seem to look like this:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i.../images?q=booted+warbler&gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en

and this:

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/s...esult&Bird_ID=1756&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

with the closest match being this bird:

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/s...esult&Bird_ID=1756&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

This is a very interesting bird! Still think thats it an Upcher's based on a number of factors that have been mentioned throughout this thread. I think that while there are individual features that may be shown by Booted as well, they don't all add up to make the complete package. I've been wrong before though...
 
You might like to check out the following page - I have toned down the sun on AJ's pictures and have these images together with shots of both Upchers and Olivaceous for comparison - see what you think
> http://www.hawar-islands.com/blog/id_stub.php

More concentrated whitish secondary panel refers clearly better to Upcher's than Eastern Olivaceous. This bird does not look Booted Warbler; it has not dark-looking crown-sides, not rounded head, not relatively short bill, not rather short tail as it should be, if the bird would be Booted.
 
I would therefore go with Reed (Eastern / fuscus presumably) but for me the light does make it impossible to say for certain. Rump colour (if noted) would be another clue (should be warm brown in Reed at this time of year but more or less concolorous with mantle in Marsh).

Blyth's Reed is another possibility but it appears to lack the 'flattened head' of that species, and also the dark tip to the lower mandible.

This case is very clear that bird is indeed Hippo-species without any doupt.
Reed and Blyth's Reed has not pale wing panel or so dark eyes as this bird and Blyth's Reed has not any pale tips or edges in the wing feathers (the feature, which it separate from every Hippos and related Acros; thus being very uniform upperparts with at most olive tinge in the outer edges of wing feathers and coverts). In addition to Blyth's Reed has not that kind of whitish outer web on t6 (which is very typical for Hippo), neither so clear white tips on the tail feathers (typical also for fuscus and also even nominate Reed, but not usually so distinct).
Some Blyth's Reed has all pale lower mandible without any clear mark of dark spot near the tip, but that kind of individuals are rather rare.
 
Howard, Booted is a small neat tidy bird, confusable with a Phylloscopus!

This is a big stonking Hippo!

Jane if it were a big Hippo can you ask AJ how in the first place he thought it small enough to be considered a Graceful or Scrub Warbler - he is sure it was a small bird which Upchers is not.

Was out yesterday again here in Bahrain saw around a dozen olivaceous but didn't sadly see any further Upchers. We did manage to trap and ring seven species including A Nightjar, Nightingale, Garden and Reed Warbler and Spotted Flycatcher - I did have a good look at each any can say in all honesty AJ's bird was not amongst them.
 
The head shape and the head size is clearly wrong for typical Booted. The biggest Eastern Olivaceous are same size as the smallest Upcher's individuals (Svensson). So the size of these two later mentioned Hippo-species varies rather much. I have no seen any pics from Booted, which jizz reminds somehow Acro. As the Jane said, Booted reminds more Phyllocs than Acro (in shape and also possible so in size too).
 
Hi

Howard, for those of us not on mbnet, is it possible to post those comments on here as well, or provide a link? It would be really useful to have everything in one place. I see that Killian Mullarney has suggested Eastern Olivaceous as the best fit. The only comment from Killian i've read is the very brief one that you posted on EBN. Was there any more? Also, any chance you could post your photoshopped overlays? Sorry if thats asking a lot, but it would really help the learning curve.

Cheers,
Paul.
 
Hi Paul (Frenchy) -

Some of the replies I receive are sent privately more so for MEB than EBN as such I am not prepared to place those here. Network traffic for EBN & MEB is fully documented on the web not certain of the url's however. I sent the intial inquiry to both networks so replies can often appear on both. I did received an update from Killian, sent to me direct, I will ask him to reply as he has read these discussions.

My photoshop bits and pieces I discarded -

Hi Hannu -

Swensson (in my english copy page 178) also states for H. pallida, the following:
NB.1 The smallest individuals of H. p. elaeica may be difficult to separate from H caligata Booted Warbler –
NB. 2 H. P. elaeica may also be very difficult to seperate from ad. Acrocephalus dumetorum Blyth's Reed Warbler.

You mention that head shape and size as being wrong for Booted it is precisely these features that many birders here in the middle east, feel do not fit into their perceived jizz for Olivaceous or Upcher's they state that those species are much more flat headed. I however still remain open minded and await a clinical diagnosis of the pictures. I now change my mind yet again to "don't Know"

We do also face a problem with Swensson for some species - a lack of data so we have to use a variety of other books. The reason being that in the Arabian Gulf so few birds have been fully studied or collected that the sub species thought to occur for some has to yet to be proven scientifically and could in fact be wrong. In fact so much of the old data we have here is based purely on field obs, separation for many Ssp can be dificult enough even with the bird in the hand. We are fortunate to be able to call on Mike Jennings coordinator of Arabian Breeding Bird Atlas he has an incredible database and bibliography plus a wealth of local birding expertise.

An example of observations from our old records - I will quote one of my favourites from Rogers & Gallagher 1973 Birds of Bahrain (privately published)
"Records not at present accepted. Melanitta fusca Velvet Scoter - not accepted misidentification of Cormorants fishing offshore". The observers name wasn't given but it does make you wonder a bit as to the quality of Historic obs, however this is nothing as I am constantly being amazed also at just how good some visiting birders are when they report that have been able to separate in the field at a hundred metres in our light certain species down to subspecies level.
 
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Hello BF-ers

I am preparing for my 13 weeks recumbent cycling trip, so I have no time to weigh all refinement in this thread. (My gear demands different thinking)
It should have been a weak thing just to follow Mullarny or Mullarney and say: EOW; but I did not.
Apart from his expertise in this, I found myself not at all with any other while reading the thread,even though it made me shrimp on my own position.
I too think its a EOW.
 
Hi Hannu -

Swensson (in my english copy page 178) also states for H. pallida, the following:
NB.1 The smallest individuals of H. p. elaeica may be difficult to separate from H caligata Booted Warbler –
NB. 2 H. P. elaeica may also be very difficult to seperate from ad. Acrocephalus dumetorum Blyth's Reed Warbler.

You mention that head shape and size as being wrong for Booted it is precisely these features that many birders here in the middle east, feel do not fit into their perceived jizz for Olivaceous or Upcher's they state that those species are much more flat headed. I however still remain open minded and await a clinical diagnosis of the pictures. I now change my mind yet again to "don't Know"

We do also face a problem with Swensson for some species - a lack of data so we have to use a variety of other books. The reason being that in the Arabian Gulf so few birds have been fully studied or collected that the sub species thought to occur for some has to yet to be proven scientifically and could in fact be wrong. In fact so much of the old data we have here is based purely on field obs, separation for many Ssp can be dificult enough even with the bird in the hand. We are fortunate to be able to call on Mike Jennings coordinator of Arabian Breeding Bird Atlas he has an incredible database and bibliography plus a wealth of local birding expertise.

At least some EOW can be that kind of head shape in some pics.
The size is sometimes rather difficult to estimate in the field and the variation of the size is rather big on these small sized birds (very often 10%).
I wonder why the bird seems to be some tail movements in the pics, which just refers to EOW or Upcher's.

We can rule out Blyth's Reed for sure. Blyth's Reed has chest-nut iris and curved rictal bristles, whereas all Hippo species have relative dark eye and straigth rictal bristles. Also Blyth's Reed has same colour in alula as the wing. This is somewhat variable in worn birds in BRW, but most have outer web of alula quite uniform and contrasting to darker inner web. Marsh Warbler, Eurasian Reed Warbler and at least most greyish Hippo species have darker alula with paler outer margin.
 
I agree Blyth's Reed seems unlikely. The obvious features on the wing are clear however the main sticking points are size as first described by Adrian - the shape of the head, colour of the legs, tail shape, rounded or square and was it spread out or fanned plus flicked or wagged, all points picked up by others and repeated in personal correspondence.

There is also one item I think we also have to consider and that is the bird's behaviour. On passage Upcher's are a skulking and silent passage migrant species, prefering areas of open but mixed vegetation. Olivaceous are a local migrant breeding species and behave accordingly. Quite gregarious males constantly sing often from prominent perches and all, both m/f are so much more active popping in and out, up and down and around the vegetation. They have a preference for thick mature vegetation. However Reed and Marsh warblers can be skulking or active, and when active in a feeding mode do flick wag and fan tails possibly for balance but it is behaviour seen often plus they regularly turn up in coastal halophytic vegetation especially if mixed with tamarisk as is the case in the location where AJ photographed this bird. We have ringed three or four Reed this week, I personally rule out this species with complete confidence on shape, size and colour alone even given the bad light in the pictures.

Don't know if this helps any but all adds to the picture.
 
Follow thougths based on your (Howard's link) pics;
There seems to be some differences in the length of tertials and in the primary projection between these species (EOW and Upcher's). The tertials are longer, thus reaches at least in the same line as "the tip of " secondaries in Upcher's, whereas tertials of Eastern Olivaceous does not "cover" totally secondaries. The primary projection seems to be longer in Upcher's than Eastern Olivaceous, but these details should study more.
Also we should look at possible differences in supercilium and loral areas.
In my mind, the supercilium of EOW looks more distinct and sharp in the front of eye and above the eye than in Upcher's, but this based only few pics of Upcher's. The dark loral area is rather wide and thus odd in this 'mystery' bird.
 
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