Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Magnifying the passion for nature. Zeiss Victory Harpia 95. New!

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Sunday 18th November 2007, 14:33   #1
gareth_blockley
Smile people
 
gareth_blockley's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Banbury, Oxfordshire
Posts: 1,613
Question Gulls for a simpleton!

I've been trying to get my head around gulls recently and am having trouble with where some of the subspecies are placed (and thats before they are officailly split!). Here's what i've got so far:

Herring gull:
W. Europe - L. a. argenteus
Scandinavian/baltic - L. a. argentatus
American - L. a. smithsonianus

YL gull:
YLG - L. m. michahellis
Caspian - L. m. cachinnans
Armenian - L. m. armenicus

LBB Gull:
W. Europe - L. f. graellsii
Scandinavian - L. f. intermedius
Baltic - L. f. fuscus
Russian - L. f. heuglini


How does that sit with you guys? Feel free to correct or fill in the gaps as you see fit!

Also if someone refers to a 'Baltic' gull would it be Herring or LBB?

Gareth

Last edited by gareth_blockley : Sunday 18th November 2007 at 14:35.
gareth_blockley is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 18th November 2007, 16:37   #2
Xenospiza
Undescribed
 
Xenospiza's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In a drawer
Posts: 10,089
Baltic always means Larus fuscus fuscus. I guess the other guys presently reading this thread will fill you in...
Xenospiza is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 18th November 2007, 16:56   #3
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,568
What situation do you want (what authority, what point in time, etc...)?

In the past, the "traditional" classification has been :
- Herring gull Larus argentatus, with sspp. argentatus, argenteus, smithsonianus and vegae;
- Yellow-legged gull Larus cachinnans, with sspp. cachinnans, michahellis, atlantis, armenicus, barabensis and mongolicus;
- LBB gull Larus fuscus, with sspp. fuscus, intermedius, graellsii, heuglini and taimyrensis.
(NB - "L. michahellis cachinnans" is a nomenclatural impossibility.)
The most frequent variation from this has been the recognition of Armenian gull Larus armenicus as an additional monotypic species (HBW, Howard & Moore, etc...).

This classification, however, has never been recognised by the BOU. Assuming the last (4th) TSC report is representative of the previous position of the BOU prior to the recent splits (? - the position of the BOU regarding several taxa unrecorded in Britain had in fact never been made clear before these splits were published...), the situation would have been :
- Herring gull L. argentatus, with sspp. argentatus, argenteus, smithsonianus, vegae, taimyrensis, heuglini, cachinnans, michahellis, atlantis, armenicus, barabensis and mongolicus;
- LBB gull L. fuscus with sspp. fuscus, intermedius and graellsii.

In their 3rd report, the BOURC-TSC separated yellow-legged and Armenian gull from this very broad herring gull, but with yellow-legged gull limited to the Mediterranean/Atlantic forms (i.e., cachinnans and the more eastern taxa were kept in the herring gull). Thus :
- Yellow-legged gull L. michahellis, with sspp. michahellis and atlantis;
- Armenian gull L. armenicus, monotypic;
- Herring gull L. argentatus, with sspp. argentatus, argenteus, smithsonianus, vegae, taimyrensis, heuglini, cachinnans, barabensis and mongolicus;
- LBB gull L. fuscus with sspp. fuscus, intermedius and graellsii.

In their 4th report, they further separated Caspian gull, and American herring gull, the latter including smithsonianus, vegae and mongolicus, and they transferred heuglini, taimyrensis and barabensis to LBB gull. Which then gives :
- Yellow-legged gull L. michahellis, with sspp. michahellis and atlantis;
- Armenian gull L. armenicus, monotypic;
- Herring gull L. argentatus, with sspp. argentatus and argenteus;
- American herring gull L. smithsonianus, with sspp. smithsonianus, vegae and mongolicus;
- Caspian gull L. cachinnans, monotypic;
- LBB gull L. fuscus with sspp. fuscus, intermedius, graellsii, taimyrensis, heuglini and barabensis.

"Baltic gull" should be Larus fuscus fuscus, indeed.
But beware that "Baltic herring gull" is a colloquial term to designate L. argentatus argentatus from the Baltic sea area (particularly from those populations where yellow legs occur quite regularly, and that have been called "L. argentatus omissus").

Laurent -
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 19th November 2007, 14:19   #4
gareth_blockley
Smile people
 
gareth_blockley's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Banbury, Oxfordshire
Posts: 1,613
Thank you

I think i get it, i had to read it a couple of times though (did you read the title of the thread?! ;-) ).

So these splits are not yet official with the BOU but are generally accepted in the birding world?

Gareth
gareth_blockley is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 19th November 2007, 17:04   #5
Docmartin
Thought Police
 
Docmartin's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by gareth_blockley View Post

So these splits are not yet official with the BOU but are generally accepted in the birding world?

Gareth
The gull splits become official with the publication of the BOURC report in January, where they will be listed, citing the 4th recommendations
__________________
George Bristow's Secret Freezer
Opinions expressed in my blog are not necessarily shared by anyone
Docmartin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 19th November 2007, 19:48   #6
redeyedvideo
It's like water off a duck's back!
 
redeyedvideo's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northampton
Posts: 3,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
What situation do you want (what authority, what point in time, etc...)?

Laurent -
The best summary I've ever seen in one place, thank you. I was wondering right to the last if you'd get through without mentioning omissus 'tho.
__________________
Dave J
redeyedvideo is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2007 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 31st January 2008, 14:29   #7
Howard King
Registered Member

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,588
BOURC are they the WORLD AUTHOURITY for name changes lumps clumps and bumps etc.
Howard King is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 31st January 2008, 15:50   #8
Gentoo
Registered Member

 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: california
Posts: 2,624
Just on a side note after reading this list. If the AUO and BOU finally follow the split of American Herring Gull, I think a new name would be appropriate.
Gentoo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 31st January 2008, 19:36   #9
SteveClifton
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: N Yorks
Posts: 2,252
Quote:
I think i get it, i had to read it a couple of times though (did you read the title of the thread?! ;-) ).
Gulls and simpletons don't really go together!! If you want simple, then they are all 'seagulls' only some aren't (if you know what I mean?)
SteveClifton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 1st February 2008, 02:49   #10
Howard King
Registered Member

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,588
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveClifton View Post
Gulls and simpletons don't really go together!! If you want simple, then they are all 'seagulls' only some aren't (if you know what I mean?)
They have too or else here in Bahrain none of our gulls will be ever identified. Have recieved some good information in an other forum about gulls see
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=100197 - pages 8 onwards to

Quote

howard, just a clarification on recent use of gull names, since you used some on your website:

larus fuscus generally is called lesser-black-backed gull but as a distinction from western races graellsii and intermedius, the nominate race fuscus (which winters at your place) often is called baltic gull. so the ones you see (small, black mantled and very long winged) are "baltic gulls".

larus (fuscus) heuglini usually is called siberian gull (or heuglin's gull)
larus (cachinnans/heuglini) barabensis = steppe gull
larus cachinnans = caspian gull (since yellow-legged gull is used only for larus michahellis.


We get in addition to these Armenian Gulls and also form Taimyrensis so we can assume we also get a good mix of xbreeds of all

Last edited by Howard King : Friday 1st February 2008 at 02:56.
Howard King is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 1st February 2008, 08:48   #11
Farnboro John
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Farnborough
Posts: 11,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
Just on a side note after reading this list. If the AUO and BOU finally follow the split of American Herring Gull, I think a new name would be appropriate.
I don't, American Herring Gull works fine for me, even if it does splash over into Asia. Its bad enough people talking about "Smickers", if we turn it into Mongolian Gull (for instance) who fancies going twitching for a "Mong"? Not me! And as for where you might go with vegae......

John
Farnboro John is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 1st February 2008, 09:38   #12
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 2,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
Just on a side note after reading this list. If the AUO and BOU finally follow the split of American Herring Gull, I think a new name would be appropriate.
The AOU don't really seem inclined to follow the split for now, anyway...
http://aou.org/committees/nacc/propo...votes_web.php3

L -
l_raty is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 1st February 2008, 18:02   #13
Gentoo
Registered Member

 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: california
Posts: 2,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
The AOU don't really seem inclined to follow the split for now, anyway...
http://aou.org/committees/nacc/propo...votes_web.php3

L -
Ah ha! this is what I was looking for on that whole didn't get a response thing from playing the calls of one to another. "The vocal data consist solely of differences in response to alarm calls played during the non-breeding season, rather than of vocalizations that might be used for species discrimination while breeding. While interesting, these results cannot be viewed as definitive.The vocal data in Frings et al. (1958) on response of Euro Herring Gulls to smithsonianus vocalizations has no bearing on their reproductive isolation: the tests for difference in responses were done at different times of the year and by different people, they seemed to only test repellent alarm calls, and they were not done on breeding grounds."as well as
Quote:
The acoustic evidence seems dubious to me, as it comes from an era (1958) before people really understood how to do playback experiments with the appropriate controls (but I didn't check that paper myself)
and to answer this
Quote:
I don't, American Herring Gull works fine for me, even if it does splash over into Asia. Its bad enough people talking about "Smickers", if we turn it into Mongolian Gull (for instance) who fancies going twitching for a "Mong"? Not me! And as for where you might go with vegae......
Perhaps name it on it's breeding range which is roughly consistant with the Taiga belt. Yes I'm radically suggesting Taiga Gull.



Now that I think about it, nevermind. LOL

For the most part though, I am in the no camp as far as slitting them is concerned. As for this comparson
Quote:
They certainly seem better differentiated than say Larus glaucescens from L. occidentalis, which we continue to maintain as two species.
These two are even more distinguishable in all plumages and they have calls, long calls especially, that even someone who isn't familiar with them can readily identify. Check this out:
Just click play on the left hand side of the page. The long calls are the first ones heard.

GWG
http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/v...-winged%20gull

WEGU
http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/v...western%20gull

One cannot hear such a big difference in Herring Gulls.
Gentoo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 2nd February 2008, 12:25   #14
Howard King
Registered Member

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,588
Quote:
Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
The AOU don't really seem inclined to follow the split for now, anyway...
http://aou.org/committees/nacc/propo...votes_web.php3

L -
Just read through this - now I am really confused about whats what plus which and when do I lump clump and bump the different forms we have here in Middle East.
Howard King is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 2nd February 2008, 13:49   #15
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard King View Post
...now I am really confused about whats what plus which and when do I lump clump and bump the different forms we have here in Middle East.
Howard,

My website (see below) summarises exactly which 'authorities' currently split each of the gull taxa. Have a look and then take your pick!

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 9th June 2009, 17:23   #16
katrinav
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: puerto rico
Posts: 1

thanks for the link!
katrinav is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 17th June 2009, 20:33   #17
Russlac123
Forum Member

 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Essex UK
Posts: 94
Pg

What is a Pontic Gull then
Russlac123 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 17th June 2009, 21:10   #18
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russlac123 View Post
What is a Pontic Gull then
Pontic Gull was an alternative English name for Larus cachinnans Caspian Gull (used by Dutch Birding several years ago - the Dutch name is still Pontische Meeuw).

Richard

Last edited by Richard Klim : Wednesday 17th June 2009 at 21:18.
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 18th June 2009, 19:56   #19
KrisiaMae
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Denver Colorado
Posts: 1
Is pontic gull very rare right now? This is only the first time that I heard this name.

Simulation pret
KrisiaMae is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 18th June 2009, 21:10   #20
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisiaMae View Post
Is pontic gull very rare right now? This is only the first time that I heard this name.
I don't think the name 'Pontic Gull' ever really caught on with English-speaking birders. DB has since adopted the more widely used English name 'Caspian Gull' instead.

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
gulls lou salomon Bird Forum Fun Quizzes 3256 Saturday 14th October 2017 16:43
Gulls, gulls, gulls... Maine coast hbreder Bird Identification Q&A 17 Sunday 7th October 2007 06:26
kelp gulls Vs herring gulls cateyes Sea Watch 2 Sunday 16th July 2006 09:27
kelp gulls and LBB gulls scuba0095 Sea Watch 4 Saturday 15th July 2006 08:56
Simpleton Gull ID ... redshift Bird Identification Q&A 5 Tuesday 16th March 2004 22:59



Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.25287390 seconds with 31 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 16:41.