[tittletattler]

Hi all,

Finally the biting easterly breeze of the last few days had died down just enough to allow me to get some digiscoped gull pics.

This bird appears to be a Yellow Legged Gull but what age is it? I'd expect a 2nd winter to be a little bit more advanced, ie, more adult type median coverts and more adult type scapulars. Is it a less advanced 2nd winter bird? Or is it an advanced 1st winter?

Also attached are pics showing some adult Yellow-legged Gulls and a 1st winter Yellow-legged Gull (large male?).

Happy new 'calendar' year to all!

Cheers,

Andy.

[tittletattler]

Hi chaps,

Any thoughts on the bird at the front of images 1 and 2 please?

Many thanks,

Andy.

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Andy,
I can't be absolutely sure, but, from what can be made out, the first bird seems as though it may have rounded primary tips, suggestive of a 2nd-w, though it really isn't possible to see enough detail to know whether this is a true feature or just a photographic artefact. Doubt a 1st-w would have plain, grey coverts also?
I must confess that this bird would probably have me scratching my head as to whether it was a 'retarded' YLGU or LBBGU, though the structure does seem better for the former: I only say this as the grey (3rd gen?) scaps and coverts appear a bit dark when compared with the adult YLGU in the background, but this may be due to the angle at which the two birds are turned, of course.

[lou salomon]

hi andy, harry,

yes, went over this then. a 2nd winter (2cy) LBBG for me, in structure resembling a YLG like harry said. it would be really retarded to be a YLG. some male graellsii are that strong. third gen. scaps are good in coulour tone for LBBG, as is the stronger striation on head, neck and flanks of this bird.

[JANJ]

I would agree with LBBG for the 2cy type - darkness and structure.

JanJ

[tittletattler]

Originally Posted by Harry Hussey

Hi Andy,
I can't be absolutely sure, but, from what can be made out, the first bird seems as though it may have rounded primary tips, suggestive of a 2nd-w, though it really isn't possible to see enough detail to know whether this is a true feature or just a photographic artefact. Doubt a 1st-w would have plain, grey coverts also?
I must confess that this bird would probably have me scratching my head as to whether it was a 'retarded' YLGU or LBBGU, though the structure does seem better for the former: I only say this as the grey (3rd gen?) scaps and coverts appear a bit dark when compared with the adult YLGU in the background, but this may be due to the angle at which the two birds are turned, of course.

Thanks Harry, Lou and Janj.

Always a worry when responses don't come thick and fast.

A tricky bird for me, this one, and I watched it for quite some time.

I've got a few pics of 2nd winter Lesser Black Backeds and they all look much different to this bird but then perhaps I don't take enough notice of them. I'll dig some out. As Lou stated, this bird could be a large male.

Have a look at this link.

http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2.../michany4y.htm

Thanks again,

Andy.

[tittletattler]

I wasn't supposed to be birding today so I took my 3 year old son to the park.....via a local gull roost in a flooded field.

As luck would have it, there was one 2nd winter Lesser Black backed Gull present and pics are attached. Worth comparing to the 2nd winter Gull in the initial post.

I'm starting to come round to the idea that the bird that I photographed on the 31st is a Lesser Black Backed Gull but I'm still not 100% convinced. It doesn't look quite dark enough and the bird does look rather bulky, more akin to a male Yellow Legged Gull but I'd be happy to concede otherwise. Does anyone have any good links to 2nd winter Graellsii images?

Bit more blowy today so please forgive the poor quality of the shots. I was also being heckled loudly from the car.

[tittletattler]

A couple more shots of Lesser Black backeds in what I think is 2nd winter plumage. Bit more advanced than the other birds so I could be in error and they could be 3rd winters.

LBBG is bottom left in the 2nd shot.

Edit: just noticed that the dates in the image names don't show up once they've been uploaded to Birdforum, so:

Image 1: 7-1-7

Image 2: 15-1-7

[tittletattler]

And here's one of the original shots from the 31st. This time I haven't used 'levels' during editting and it is also uncropped. It has been sharpened.

http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2.../micha322j.htm

http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2.../michanov2.htm

Cheers,

Andy.

[tittletattler]

Hi all,

Any more takers on this thread?

Please view the Yellow Legged Gull in this link:

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.p...&subcatsub=225

Any further comments most welcome!

Cheers,

Andy.

[Xenospiza]

Save yourself the headache and only look at 1st winters and adults – that's what I do anyway – and from the plethora of answers it appears I'm not alone!
Mantle colour is often hard to judge, but I guess your "dark bird" is too dark grey (still) to be Yellow-legged.

[tittletattler]

Originally Posted by Xenospiza

Save yourself the headache and only look at 1st winters and adults

Oh no, no, no, no! They're even worse. And don't get me started on 4th calendar YLGs and Casps.....

Anyway, if I had 20 pence in my pocket I'd still have more money than sense. So I look at gulls.

Post 9. Uncropped. Back left. Same species? Hard to believe........

[CAU]

Compare these two November 2cy LBBGs:
http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg2cyd/2cynovpic28.htm
http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg2cyd/2cynovpic23.htm
Same species, same age, still they look completely different.

I agree with Xenospiza's comment, and IMO juvenile and 1st winter YLGs are the ones that are by far easiest to identify (especially if they look typical enough...). On the other hand, e.g. 2nd summer YLGs may look very similar to Herring Gulls. Subadult Caspian Gulls are somewhat easier due to their different calls and often distinct head and bill shape.

[tittletattler]

Originally Posted by CAU

Same species, same age, still they look completely different.

Some of the 2nd winter Yellow Leggeds locally can vary greatly in plumage. Usually quite straightforward, though.

For example:

Image 1 taken on 26/12/6
Image 2 taken on 14/01/07
Image 3 21/11/8
Image 4 10/2/7
Image 5 21/11/7