[gthang]

This afternoon, I was driving through a small town, and spotted what I believed to be turkeys. As I got closer, I realized that they weren't turkeys, but rather a pair of Helmeted Guineafowl. Since the birds are not native to North America, but were deliberately introduced for hunting, I am torn between ticking it, or not ticking it. Guineafowl, since being introduced, have established big populations in North America, so many of them are wild.

I'm not trying to tick them to increase my lifelist, but on the other hand, since I have now seen something exotic but not confined to a cage or tether, I would like to add it to my lifelist for this reason.

What's your take on this?

[Rasmus Boegh]

NO . The main rules are, that something can be ticked if it is part of a viable and/or wild population. I.e. in Europe you can tick the pheasant, even though it isn't native. No regular birder would be able to take a person seriously, if they discovered that (s)he had ticked a Guineafowl near NY! The Guineafowl you saw are probably nothing but escapees (though still beautiful). Also note, that many farmers let them roam freely as chickens...

[gthang]

OK, thanks. I'll add it to my Exotics Lifelist especially for exotic birds that were introduced for hunting purposes or whatever!

Thanks for the advice!

[Rasmus Boegh]

Of course you should note it, as it certainly is a very beautiful species... In any case, I know from your recent posts that you have seen many great (and native) species recently

[gthang]

If it was in a zoo, I wouldn't tick it at all! But since there's a fine line between domesticated and wild birds, I wasn't sure.

It was seen on a very rural dead end street with driveways, but the woods were so dense you couldn't see the actual houses. THe guineafowl were foraging near the side of the road, and ran away when I tried to exit my car. I did however, get some good shots of one of the birds looking at me as I made a "pishing" sound.

[Fulmar]

Hi Gthang,

I would tick them when they were really wild, that is when they are not belonging to somebody, when they are no longer visiting the farm or collection where they came from, and when they can and do live fully independent from men. Some of those exotics become feral, e.g. in the USA there seems to be a feral population of these Guineafowl in Florida. In the UK you have feral populations of e.g. Golden Pheasant and Lady Amherst's Pheasant which I would tick if I would see them. And I saw e.g. feral Canary-winged Parakeets in California which I ticked.

In your case I think I would not tick it because, reading your description, they were quite close to houses and probably belong to somebody and go there for (extra) food and protection. This would be comparable to free-roaming chicken around a farm.

But what you tick on your lifelist is your choice. Only when you want to see how you are doing compared with other birders or if you want to join in a competition with other people about who has the biggest list, then you need to comply with a standard set of rules like the AOU list in the USA, or the BOU list in the UK. But that is entirely up to you!

[Beverlybaynes]

Hey, gthang -- I could put Guineafowl on my list, too, except I know they were escapees! But they are really something to come across when driving through a fairly thick woods in the middle of nowhere!

I'm guessing that eventually they will 'count' for a list -- after all, the Ring-necked Pheasant was an introduction (over a century ago, tho).

Like Fulmar says, it's YOUR list -- do what you want with it!

[rogerk]

Originally Posted by gthang

This afternoon, I was driving through a small town, and spotted what I believed to be turkeys. As I got closer, I realized that they weren't turkeys, but rather a pair of Helmeted Guineafowl. Since the birds are not native to North America, but were deliberately introduced for hunting, I am torn between ticking it, or not ticking it. Guineafowl, since being introduced, have established big populations in North America, so many of them are wild.

I'm not trying to tick them to increase my lifelist, but on the other hand, since I have now seen something exotic but not confined to a cage or tether, I would like to add it to my lifelist for this reason.

What's your take on this?

Not a chance!
There is no way I would tick something if I thought it were in any way being bred.
Some friends of mine and I saw some Guinea Fowl feeding at the side of the road on the way back from a birding trip, we just laughed them off as farm birds! Pretty though they are, unless you know they are 'wild' in the broader sense, don't embarrass yourself by ticking farm birds on ANY list.

[Charles Harper]

It's not so much a matter of whether these particular individuals are escapees or wild breeders, but whether there is a viable wild population there which has been breeding successfully for-- what is it? 20 years? The AOU and subsequently the ABA make official decisions on the status of each of these exotic introductions, based on breeding and other criteria, and most NA birders follow those guidelines, ne c'est pas?

Why don't you keep an eye on them, GT? I have been recording the slow expansion of Crested Mynas in my part of Yokohama since 1990, and in another six years, I will tick them without a qualm.

[Bluetail]

Originally Posted by Charles Harper

It's not so much a matter of whether these particular individuals are escapees or wild breeders, but whether there is a viable wild population there which has been breeding successfully for-- what is it? 20 years?

Isn't it? You could argue (and probably should) that if the bird you see is one of the feral population that has resulted in the species having a place on the national list then you can tick it; if it's not likely to be from that population then it's an escape/release and you can't.

[Rasmus Boegh]

Originally Posted by Bluetail

Isn't it? You could argue (and probably should) that if the bird you see is one of the feral population that has resulted in the species having a place on the national list then you can tick it; if it's not likely to be from that population then it's an escape/release and you can't.

I certainly see your point, but it would usually be impossible to judge if an individual is part of the population that was established, say, 25 years ago, or a bird that escaped yesterday. It can be compared to knowing if the Blue Tit you just saw is part of the natural population or an escapee. It quite simply isn't possible to differentiate to that level, so we are (more or less willingly) forced to choose...

[Fulmar]

so we are (more or less willingly) forced to choose...

Yes Rasmus, personal choices!

But how about this: in the Netherlands (where I live) there is a feral population of Rose-ringed Parakeet / Psittacula krameri which is breeding and sustaining themselves. Many people tick these nowadays. But imagine you were a visitor to the Netherlands twenty or thirty years ago, and you would have spotted the very first free-flying Rose-ringed Parakeet of what later became the self-sustaining and breeding group. You never returned to the Netherlands so your only record of Rose-ringed Parakeet was the one that you saw a long time ago and that you didn't note and tick because you considered it an escapee. Last week I saw a group of about 200 Egyptian Goose / Alopochen aegytiacus...... Just thoughts......

The official Dutch checklist does not recognize the Rose-ringed Parakeet and the Egyptian Goose as a Dutch species, but then, they also don't recognize the Ring-necked Pheasant / Phasianus colchicus and even the Rock Pigeon / Columba livia. So, when you adhere to the official Dutch list, you can't even tick the Pheasant and the Pigeon!

And there is another problem with ticking apart from the escapee problem. As I visit foreign countries regularly I consider myself a "world birder". So there is no point in adhering to an AOU, BOU, or Dutch Committee list, because many species are of course not present on those national lists, and the different committees do not agree on lots of things, read splits and lumps.

To give an example, my life list until 1981 (as published in the Lists Forum, unashamed plug ) has reached 97 species. To decide on what is considered a species I keep to the Clements list. However, when I would had kept to the Sibley-Monroe list I would have had 96 species, because they do not recognize the split of the American and European Black-billed Magpie which I had both seen. When I would have kept to the Dutch Committee list, I would have had 98 species, because they recognize the split of the White Wagtail and the Pied Wagtail, which Clements doesn't! Oh no, I'm lying, I have to take the Ring-necked Pheasant off the list, so the number remains 97, but with different species!

So, make your own choices, and be happy with your list. And when you want high numbers, use a mix of different lists and always choose from the one with has a split for your species!

Peter

[gthang]

OK, can someone point me to a AOU list link or other information? Because there are at least 3 species of intentionally released game birds, including Black Francolin (F. francolinus), and Common Peafowl (Pavo cristatus), that are often seen or have small feral populations.

[Bluetail]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Boegh

I certainly see your point, but it would usually be impossible to judge if an individual is part of the population that was established, say, 25 years ago, or a bird that escaped yesterday. It can be compared to knowing if the Blue Tit you just saw is part of the natural population or an escapee. It quite simply isn't possible to differentiate to that level, so we are (more or less willingly) forced to choose...

I go part of the way with you, Rasmus. I think a lot depends on how common the species has become and/or how prone the birds are dispersing. In England it's fair to say that an East Anglian Golden Pheasant seen anywhere near Wolferton or Thetford is likely to be feral, whereas any seen in the south west counties (except, arguably, around Poole Harbour) is likely to be an escape. But certainly there's no way of being absolutely sure.

[Bluetail]

Originally Posted by gthang

OK, can someone point me to a AOU list link or other information? Because there are at least 3 species of intentionally released game birds, including Black Francolin (F. francolinus), and Common Peafowl (Pavo cristatus), that are often seen or have small feral populations.

http://www.aou.org/aou/birdlist.html

Helmeted Guineafowl is on there as an introduced species.

[gthang]

And sometimes, I try to refer to the latest bird guides for help. Fulmar's Ring-Necked Pheasant is a wild bird here in North America, but even though the bird is not on the Dutch Committee's list, it is a wild bird in other areas of the world, and thus should be ticked. Since I do not know of any ring-necked pheasant farms, it's highly likely that even if it's not on the DC's list, it's a wild bird.

[Charles Harper]

I think the Dutch committee's list is for Dutchland, GT.

However, when I was young, Dad raised Ring-necked Pheasants. Bought the fertile eggs at the General Store. They were possibly robbed from a local nest, though, or...? Would I be able to tick the birds we raised (before we ate them, of course)?

[Dave B Smith]

Gthang,

There have been lots of questions in these forums over the years about the "tickability" of birds, and about a year ago, I was asking the same question. From what I've seen and read since then I'm going to try to give a brief summary of the criteria for ticking.

Even though a bird is on the AOU list as an introduced species doesn't automatically make it "tickable". If you take the example of Common Peafowl, the AOU recognizes it as an established species in Hawaii only. We have a local established flock near my home in Florida in the little town of Rio that has been surviving for over 20 years, but they are not yet recognized by AOU as "established" so even though one frequents our neighborhood, I can't tick it. If I see one in Hawaii, I can.

(Chinese) Ring-necked Pheasants in the US are now considered wild but were originally an introduced species. They are being kept in farms in many countries and some are escaping and living ferally, but because they are "wild" now in the US, doesn't make them "tickable" in a European country where they may have been recently introduced. It goes back to the concept of having an established, reproducing group in an area.

There is also a similar issue with "reintroduced" species. There is actually an article here on BF where BeverlyBaynes gave some of the guidelines that are used to establish how many generations of birds have to have been raised before a reintroduced species is tickable in that area. The California Condor and the Whooping Cranes in Florida are great examples. The first C.Condor chick born in the wild from released parents has now fledged in the Grand Canyon. However, being the first generation it is not tickable. And the Whoopers in Florida have been migrating now for three years and though free flying, are not tickable. Whooping cranes in Texas are tickable because they are part of an existing, not reestablished breeding flock.

Hope this helps some.

[Michael Frankis]

Originally Posted by Dave B Smith

(Chinese) Ring-necked Pheasants in the US are now considered wild but were originally an introduced species. They are being kept in farms in many countries and some are escaping and living ferally, but because they are "wild" now in the US, doesn't make them "tickable" in a European country where they may have been recently introduced. It goes back to the concept of having an established, reproducing group in an area.

Hi Dave,

RN Pheasants have been established for a long time in the Netherlands, the reason they are not counted on the official Dutch list is that the official Dutch list only covers native species, they have a policy of not adding any introduced species at all.

Michael

[Edward]

Originally Posted by Michael Frankis

Hi Dave,

RN Pheasants have been established for a long time in the Netherlands, the reason they are not counted on the official Dutch list is that the official Dutch list only covers native species, they have a policy of not adding any introduced species at all.

Michael

Instead the Dutch make up their numbers by being rather liberal on the splitting front!

E

[Rasmus Boegh]

Originally Posted by Bluetail

I go part of the way with you, Rasmus. I think a lot depends on how common the species has become and/or how prone the birds are dispersing.

Personally, I would never put something non-native on my list, but that is my choice. What I mentioned before is just the generally accepted way of doing it. It's the way most country list works (obviously with exceptions as the Dutch). As said, I haven't got a single introduced bird on my list, but am willing to put on "re-introductions". However, I am in the lucky position that every species I have seen that was not native; I have also seen them in one of their native countries (Ruddy Shelduck, Egyptian Goose, Ring-necked Pheasant, Helmeted Guineafowl etc. etc.). But, as said, it basically comes down to a personal choice, though care should be taken if you want to make your list "official". In any case, I consider the pleasure of seeing a species much more important than it being a tick...