[Scousejoe]

I was thinking of getting some of these for birding, but now having second thoughts as almost everybody who likes these, seems to comment on how good they are for close up work. Haven't heard hardly anyone sing their praises for birding, seems to me if you like looking at ant colonies, butterflies, flora, dragonfly, ladybirds, pretty much everything other than birds then they are good. Is there anyone who has them for birding ?

[Bill S]

I have the 6.5X version but seldom use it for birding. It seems to be well made, having a smooth focusing mechanism and a sharp image. However, in anything but full daylight it seems very dim compared to any of my larger binoculars. The small exit pupil doesn’t allow the “easy view” you get with something like the 6X32 Katmai (which is roughly the same size but significantly heavier). Also, the Papillio does not have enough eye-relief to work with glasses. My current favorite small birding binoculars are the Vortex 6.5X32 Fury and the Swift 7X36 Eaglet. Both are vastly more pleasant to use than the Papillio but are considerably bulkier and heavier. The Leupold Katmai is my choice when I need maximum portability. Of course all of these cost 2 to 3 times as much as the Papillio.

[ronh]

I tried a one in a shop, and was flabbergasted at the brilliant trick of close focusing that it could do. I think it would be worth the price for that.

But it's like the bear that could not dance so well, only that he could dance at all. It is basically a cheap little bino with a lot of complicated moving parts allowing the close focus. At this, it stands alone, and as the world's only, is the world's best. At distance viewing, there is some competition.
Ron

[edwincjones]

other than close up work, I use them for

-hiking due to very light weight
-birding while hiking
-astronomy when larger binocs are not available

of course, there are better binoculars for birding and astronomy,
but I use what I have when the chance presents.

edj

[Kevin Purcell]

Like the others here I agree that the Papillos are amazing for close up work. They're unique and if you have an interest as a naturalist in addition to being a birder they're a great tool.

In fact today (when I didn't have them with me) I was trying to look at some small and very active ladybugs/ladybirds in our P-Patch. I captured one in my hand (no bug box) but it really wanted to get away mixing fast running and attempting to fly. It worked and I didn't get a close look at it. Now if I had my Papillo's I would have had a great view whilst it wandered around on the plants.

They can be used to bird in a pinch but they are beaten by other reverse porros at the similar price point.

I really think of mine as portable long-distance microscopes. The 6.5x is more generally useful but the 8.5x is useful for small objects (ants and other small invertebrates when you mount the bin on a tripod (so looking at a fixed target). No shake and the usable DOF stays in the "right" place.

[spitfiretriple]

Simple answer: No

More complex answer: It goes without saying that the Papilio is the bees kness when it comes to looking at ... err.. bees' knees. But does this automatically mean the Papilio is no good for birding? Again, no.

I have a 6.5 Papilio. I also have (or had, since buying the Papilio I've disposed of some) a variety of bins with RRPs ranging from £20 to £180. Even for normal (non-macro) use, the Papilio whips them all, with the exception, in low light at least, of a yet-another-rebranded-Chinese 8x40 porro. The porro is about twice the weight and bulk, mind, so maybe that's not a fair comparison. The Papilio even whips my Swift Audubon Vector 10x42 phase-corrected roof.

But yes, I'll concede, if you are not the slightest bit interested in flowers or insects, you can easily buy a better birding bin for the £100 that the Papilio costs. It might be heavier and bulkier than the Papilio, mind, even thought the Papilio is fairly heavy and bulky for a 6.5x21. If you want something no heavier and no bulkier than the Papilio for birding for £100, it won't be quite so easy, but you can still do it. Other people have already suggested some fine binoculars that are probably better value for money for birding.

But if you have even the slightest interest in flowers or insects, buy the Papilio anyway. It gives a unique and wonderful view into a different world. Not convinced? Try and find one for sale second-hand.

PS: Bill S: Welcome.

[spitfiretriple]

Originally Posted by ronh

I tried a one in a shop, and was flabbergasted at the brilliant trick of close focusing that it could do. I think it would be worth the price for that.

But it's like the bear that could not dance so well, only that he could dance at all. It is basically a cheap little bino with a lot of complicated moving parts allowing the close focus. At this, it stands alone, and as the world's only, is the world's best. At distance viewing, there is some competition.
Ron

You tried it in a shop, Ron, and were impressed. Now try in in your garden, and examine the petals of a flower. And see for the first time in your life the delicacy of the fragile veins of colour. Now look at a butterfly sipping nectar from that flower. Marvel at its coiled tongue darting into the nectaries. Gasp at the brilliance of the individual scales on its wings. The only other way you will see this sort of detail is through a microscope. Which means that whatever you are looking at will be dead. The Papilio allows you to view it while it is as alive as you are. There's the magic.

The Papilio is not a cheap little bino with a lot of complicated moving parts. The Papilio is a reasonably-priced little bino, with surprisingly good quality optics, with a couple of clever extra components, simple and reliable, that allow it to perform a miracle.

The Papilio is not a dancing bear. The Papilio is a prima ballerina.

[Nessus]

Mine are not that bad at distance viewing, of course I modified my eye cups for longer eye relief but I think it's just that my pair is pretty well collimated. The first pair I tried had a soft left barrel and could never quite focus properly so they do seem to have wild variations in quality from what I've read and experienced.

That said I would never take them out birding without a second pair of better bins. They are not good enough in my opinion to serve as your main birding bin for a day out. But you can get a decent look at something far away if need be.

[Kevin Purcell]

Great write up spitfire.

One thing Nikon (e.g. Nikon Mini Field Microscope 20x Stereoscopic Naturescope - 7314) and some others do make low magnification field microscopes so you can watch live mini-beasts in their natural environment (they're reflection rather than transmission microscopes). Very useful for watching stuff "the next step down" from the Papillos if you can bring it onto the stage below the scope.

e.g.

http://www.nikon.com/about/news/1999/nscopemini_99.htm
http://www.opticsplanet.net/nikon-fieldmicroscope.html

Nikon have been doing this since the 1930s and building some novel instruments like this on the Nikon H which reminds me the




It's another thing for optics nuts to obsess about.

[spitfiretriple]

They're certainly dinky. And I have for a while been thinking about getting a stereo microscope (I have only a cheap and nasty "mono"). But the only deal I could see in Britain for these was £318. Way too much for what is nothing more than a whim.

PS Thanks! I am, I'm afraid, a bit of a Papilio evangelist.

[Kevin Purcell]

You can order them from cameralandny.com (a sponser of the scope forum on BF). They ship worldwide. And they probably have them demo priced too. Add VAT and some handling (and maybe import duty) and you'll have them a lot cheaper than that.

Send Doug an email and ask him about the process.

[edwincjones]

Originally Posted by Kevin Purcell

You can order them from cameralandny.com (a sponser of the scope forum on BF). They ship worldwide. And they probably have them demo priced too. Add VAT and some handling (and maybe import duty) and you'll have them a lot cheaper than that.

Send Doug and email and ask him about the process.

today, cameraland ny has them listed on demo list for $80/90 US

edj

[Nigel Davies]

My wife Christine has a pair of the 6.5's and she really loves her butterflies, looking at close or middle distant birds no problem. I have my scope with me most of the time and when you use that with the papilio's it's a great combination.

As our friend from Bristol said you don't see any secondhands ones for sale. My wife would not sell her's and if she did, I would buy them.

All the best Nigel

[John P]

I bought a pair of 6.5 Papilios this morning for Dragonfly watching, just need some sun now to bring the Dragons out but initial impressions are good. In todays murky light they are not as bright as my Swifts but not so far behind to bother me for occasional more distant work.

I think in the conditions that are best for Dragons and Damsels they will be excellent.

Mine came from here, they were not in stock when I enquired but they got some in for me to look at (took about ten days). I had to get them to confirm that the shop price was the same as the internet price.

[gvca1]

One other trick you might try with your Papillios: They have a tripod mounting socket on them. Set up a tripod without extending leg sections, so it's fairly close to the ground. Mount the bins on the tripod, and now you have a stable platform, which really helps when focused close. Great for looking at anthills, or studying flower structures. Makes them even more of a 'field microscope' setup.

Jim

[Nessus]

Mine perform great now that I lengthened the eyecups almost a half inch.

The rubber is glued on with cheap horrible glue,you can pull them right off stick 2 rubber O rings in there to make them rest up higher on the plastic of the cup. Then you'll be be able to get one neat circle pf view much more easily. I've done this same mod to all 3 pairs of Pentax I have and it works great. The 9x28 really benefited nicely.

[ceasar]

Originally Posted by Nessus

Mine perform great now that I lengthened the eyecups almost a half inch.

The rubber is glued on with cheap horrible glue,you can pull them right off stick 2 rubber O rings in there to make them rest up higher on the plastic of the cup. Then you'll be be able to get one neat circle pf view much more easily. I've done this same mod to all 3 pairs of Pentax I have and it works great. The 9x28 really benefited nicely.

The ER on the 9 x 28 Pentax has been no problem for me. It is listed as 18mm and that seems to be accurate. I don't wear glasses but I have no problem seeing the full (albeit small, 294') FOV wearing large aviator sun glasses.
Bob

[jimtrader11]

Originally Posted by Nessus

Mine perform great now that I lengthened the eyecups almost a half inch.

The rubber is glued on with cheap horrible glue,you can pull them right off stick 2 rubber O rings in there to make them rest up higher on the plastic of the cup. Then you'll be be able to get one neat circle pf view much more easily. I've done this same mod to all 3 pairs of Pentax I have and it works great. The 9x28 really benefited nicely.

Just my 2 cents. I wear glasses and have no problem with eye relief on my Papilios. I have both 6.5x and 8x models. My 6.5x seems a bit brighter and sharper.

[Nessus]

Ceaser the eye relief on my little Pentax 9x28's is pretty good I just pull the rubber up a bit sometimes, sometimes use em regualar, they are powerful little bin. Some of my other Pentax's feel like the cups are pretty short. Like my papillo 6.5. Both you guys are wearing glasses while viewing which is a totally different experience because your eye's are physically farther away from the ocular of the binocular. So I am compensating for that distance be making my cups longer.

[rtx]

Originally Posted by edwincjones

other than close up work, I use them for

-hiking due to very light weight
-birding while hiking
-astronomy when larger binocs are not available

of course, there are better binoculars for birding and astronomy,
but I use what I have when the chance presents.

edj

how do these look on a clear night? I was thinking of buying one as a backup to my 10x42 which I've downgraded to a luxury item!

[edwincjones]

for astronomy, better than naked eye

edj

[jaymoynihan]

I got the 8.5x model for close-up when they came out, primarily for ants. Great for that. Regular distance viewing? Poor image quality i think.

[Swissboy]

Originally Posted by jaymoynihan

I got the 8.5x model for close-up when they came out, primarily for ants. Great for that. Regular distance viewing? Poor image quality i think.

I could not disagree more with that last statement. It's clear that it can't compete with the alpha crowd. But it does very well indeed for its price, and way beyond at that. But maybe, I just have a particularly fine one. More here: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=145183, check post #17.

[Kevin Purcell]

I'd agree with that.

Poor quality view is going to far but the view isn't great compared to other reverse porros I've used I think mainly due to a narrower FOV than I'd like. But usable in a pinch though if you were expecting butterflys and see an interesting bird.

Interesting though I've seen Papillo's twice on BBC shows: around the necks of a leps watcher and a dragonfly watcher. For that they excel.

[Tero]

If I need an 8x reverse porro I'll get some other model. It was not spectacular. But really, none of them are. You are not getting a super view in the compact category at this price, it is an art to make the 8x20s and 8sx25s.

My current pocket bino is the Columbia 8x25 that sold out. Single hinge.