[gwsudiro]

hello..^_^

does someone have an experience or have some info about those binoculars?

are they good, optically?

are they Nitrogen purged or just waterproof?

http://www.analytik-jena.de/en/Optic...oculars__227/#

many thanks before, for your kind help...
Galih

[Hermann]

Originally Posted by gwsudiro

does someone have an experience or have some info about those binoculars?
are they good, optically?
are they Nitrogen purged or just waterproof?

Briefly, because you'll find some information on these bins if you use the search function and at Holger Merlitz's website (he reviewed the original version made by Carl Zeiss Jean for the East German armed forces): They're built like a tank, almost indestructible. Optically I wouldn't rate them as highly as most modern roofs.

If you need a pair of bins that can will work no matter what you do to it, they're perfect. If you just want a waterproof pair with up-to-date optics I'd look elsewhere.

Hermann

[gwsudiro]

Originally Posted by Hermann

Briefly, because you'll find some information on these bins if you use the search function and at Holger Merlitz's website (he reviewed the original version made by Carl Zeiss Jean for the East German armed forces): They're built like a tank, almost indestructible. Optically I wouldn't rate them as highly as most modern roofs.

If you need a pair of bins that can will work no matter what you do to it, they're perfect. If you just want a waterproof pair with up-to-date optics I'd look elsewhere.

Hermann

hi Hermann! ^_^

thanks for the thoughts....I've read at mr.Merlitz's website though...maybe could you give some comments about this bino vs other...some short head to head comparison maybe?

how about the Docter version? do you have any info especially for the optical aspect? still the same? or just coating change?

regarding to Nitrogen purged...just missed it when I read Docter's PDF file for these binos. They are...uh...indeed...filled with nitrogen......hehehe..

best regards
Galih

[Hermann]

Originally Posted by gwsudiro

how about the Docter version? do you have any info especially for the optical aspect? still the same? or just coating change?

It's been a couple of years since I last looked through one ... But the colour cast is gone in the Docter version, it's pretty close to neutral and not as yellow as the Zeiss Jena. The Zeiss Jena had radiation resistent glass types, just like the Russion BPO 7x30, which Docter doesn't use. I think the coatings have also be updated. I remember the image was good but not excellent compared to a Leica Trinovid 7x42 at the time.

What I'm not sure about is whether the Docter is phase-coated, but I can ask the Docter people by email if you like. With binoculars with large exit pupils like the 7x40 EDF it can be difficult to judge in broad daylight because you can inadvertently place you eye pupil in one half on the binocular's exit pupil.

Hermann

[gwsudiro]

Originally Posted by Hermann

It's been a couple of years since I last looked through one ... But the colour cast is gone in the Docter version, it's pretty close to neutral and not as yellow as the Zeiss Jena. The Zeiss Jena had radiation resistent glass types, just like the Russion BPO 7x30, which Docter doesn't use. I think the coatings have also be updated. I remember the image was good but not excellent compared to a Leica Trinovid 7x42 at the time.

What I'm not sure about is whether the Docter is phase-coated, but I can ask the Docter people by email if you like. With binoculars with large exit pupils like the 7x40 EDF it can be difficult to judge in broad daylight because you can inadvertently place you eye pupil in one half on the binocular's exit pupil.

Hermann

if its not much trouble, I'd be glad to know whether its phase coated or not..thanks in advance Hermann!

about the big exit pupil related to judging difficulties...could you explain more?

best regards
Galih

[Star Farmer]

Originally Posted by gwsudiro

hello..^_^

does someone have an experience or have some info about those binoculars?

are they good, optically?

are they Nitrogen purged or just waterproof?

http://www.analytik-jena.de/en/Optic...oculars__227/#

many thanks before, for your kind help...
Galih

The EDF is designed for military use. Great optically. Very sharp, flat field, comfortable on the eyes. Strong yellow tint which enhances contrast in most daylight conditions. Somewhat narrow field of view, may be less than 50 degrees.

The individual focus may take some getting used to. Not a problem is you only use them for distant objects as you can set it once and don't bother with it again.

Mechanically over engineered and very heavy. Great for banging around at camp but don't hike too far with them. Definitely water proof, don't know if nitrogen purged.

[Hermann]

Originally Posted by gwsudiro

about the big exit pupil related to judging difficulties...could you explain more?

When the exit pupil of a binocular is big (~ 6mm or more) enough and your eye pupils are small in bright daylight, it is possible to place your eye pupils in one half on the exit pupil of the binocular, thus avoiding the problems caused by interference between the two paths the light is taking through the roof prisms. That's quite an interesting effect. We experimented a bit with a Zeiss 8x56 and a 10x40 without phase-coatings after Zeiss published an article about phase-coatings where the authors described this effect, and it is possible. I think that's one of the reasons why some older users still keep their Zeiss and Hensldt 8x56's without phase-coating.

Hermann

[gwsudiro]

Hermann,

woah, thats interesting....thanks for the new info..

[gwsudiro]

Originally Posted by Star Farmer

The EDF is designed for military use. Great optically. Very sharp, flat field, comfortable on the eyes. Strong yellow tint which enhances contrast in most daylight conditions. Somewhat narrow field of view, may be less than 50 degrees.

The individual focus may take some getting used to. Not a problem is you only use them for distant objects as you can set it once and don't bother with it again.

Mechanically over engineered and very heavy. Great for banging around at camp but don't hike too far with them. Definitely water proof, don't know if nitrogen purged.

hello Star Farmer..^_^

welcome! thanks for the input, you're right! its heavy! around 1 Kg!!! just realized that on the Docter's leaflet

any other thoughts? maybe (again) a short comparison vs other bino?

best regards
Galih

[Star Farmer]

I was actually playing with a 10x42 FLT at the same time. Found the yellow tint of the EDF to be very helpful in enhancing the contrast. The 10X was a bit flat and cool by comparision. No obvious difference in resolution. Wasn't fair, as it was a casual glance at shrubs and birds, and there was a light fog which played to the EDF's advantage.

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by gwsudiro

hello..^_^

does someone have an experience or have some info about those binoculars?

are they good, optically?

are they Nitrogen purged or just waterproof?

http://www.analytik-jena.de/en/Optic...oculars__227/#

many thanks before, for your kind help...
Galih

You can buy one on eBay right now for $1,195. Same price at IOR.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...WNASIF:US:1123

When I asked the seller if what he meant about the bin "using the latest improved optical glass and coating technologies" if that meant they had dielectric coatings on the prisms (and phase coatings, of course, standard even on under $200 roofs these days), he told me to call IOR Valdada at 303-979-4578 for further technical info.

IOR Valdada carries their own brand, plus Doctor/Jena and Optolyth:

http://www.valdada.com/catalog/2dc81...31ae04543.aspx

If they would add the latest AR coatings to the lenses (which means they would have to make the lenses new since you can't just slap on MC AR coatings on old single coated leftover Zeiss lenses), why in tarnation, wouldn't they add p-coatings and reflective coatings - at least silver - to the prisms? Even more puzzling, if they did, why wouldn't they put that information in their ads?

I don't care if they are booger proof, dadburnit, the optics are first and foremost, and if they want $1,195 for a roof with no phase coatings or reflective coatings on the prisms, they can find another fool.

Fool on the Hill

[gwsudiro]

thanks StarFarmer and Brock...^_^

I like the design, but are they worth (optically) ? that I still want to find out..
(more review, please...)

I can get cheaper price on Roskam Optics Netherlands (EUR 603, free shipping to Indonesia)...hehehe.. will save around $300-400 than the Ebay's

[Hermann]

The EDF 7x40 doesn't have phase-coatings.

Hermann

[gwsudiro]

Originally Posted by Hermann

The EDF 7x40 doesn't have phase-coatings.

Hermann

I'll pass..I'll pass it...

thank you very much for the clarification Hermann..

but like Star Farmer said : "No obvious difference in resolution" then large exit pupil does help in bino without phase coating..

again thank you very much!
Galih

[Star Farmer]

Did some more comparison of the EDF with the Zeiss 10x42 and the Dialyt 7x42.

The EDF has a lot more contrast than the other two. It gives much better depth of field and depth perception, and more sterescopic effect. Once the focus is set, everything from 100 ft to infinity is tack sharp(your eyes may give different results). The eyecups are the most comfortable of the three. To me, it gives the most pleasing view.

The Dialyt seems to be slightly better with resolution, but is detectible only after gazing at an object for a long time. The 10x42 has the best resolution by far, but the field of view is smaller and is more difficult to hold steady. The angular field of view of the EDF is only slightly narrower than the other two, a couple of degrees may be.

The EDF is probably not preferred for birding due to the yellow tint and slower focussing. The military reticle may be objectionable to some, though I find it easy to ignore.

[gwsudiro]

Originally Posted by Star Farmer

Did some more comparison of the EDF with the Zeiss 10x42 and the Dialyt 7x42.

The EDF has a lot more contrast than the other two. It gives much better depth of field and depth perception, and more sterescopic effect. Once the focus is set, everything from 100 ft to infinity is tack sharp(your eyes may give different results). The eyecups are the most comfortable of the three. To me, it gives the most pleasing view.

The Dialyt seems to be slightly better with resolution, but is detectible only after gazing at an object for a long time. The 10x42 has the best resolution by far, but the field of view is smaller and is more difficult to hold steady. The angular field of view of the EDF is only slightly narrower than the other two, a couple of degrees may be.

The EDF is probably not preferred for birding due to the yellow tint and slower focussing. The military reticle may be objectionable to some, though I find it easy to ignore.

wow..StarFarmer, you have the tops of Zeiss there...the legendary Dialyt, the excellent FL and the indestructible EDF...<drool....>

I wonder if you have the "religious" 15x60 BGAT porro as well ???

anyway, thank you for the continuing review

best regards
Galih

[ronh]

I've never used one of these, but ran across detailed spec sheet during a recent phase of interest in another Docter binocular. If you click on the arrow next to the EDF, and open the pdf file shown in the page that opens next, you'll get the specs.

http://www.analytik-jena.de/en/Optic...noculars__227/

Note the specification of resolution, which I take to mean what we call "magnification boosted resolution", removing the acuity of the eye from the measurement. Not many binoculars guarantee resolution, and it seems odd that what this one is guaranteeing is in fact rather poor: 6 arcsec for the 7x40, 5 arcsec for the 10x42. Admittedly, this guarantee is for the worst permitted resolution, but a top notch binocular would be twice that good. So, I can believe they aren't phase coated.

People say they're tough, OK, that's their main claim I guess. But, don't you think the axle looks kind of puny?

Oh well. I have to wonder about Docter roofs. Their top ED model fared OK for the price in the recent Binomania 8x42 blowout review, not great. But if my 15x60 is any indication, their PORROS are as good as it gets.
Ron

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by ronh

I've never used one of these, but ran across detailed spec sheet during a recent phase of interest in another Docter binocular. If you click on the arrow next to the EDF, and open the pdf file shown in the page that opens next, you'll get the specs.

http://www.analytik-jena.de/en/Optic...noculars__227/

Note the specification of resolution, which I take to mean what we call "magnification boosted resolution", removing the acuity of the eye from the measurement. Not many binoculars guarantee resolution, and it seems odd that what this one is guaranteeing is in fact rather poor: 6 arcsec for the 7x40, 5 arcsec for the 10x42. Admittedly, this guarantee is for the worst permitted resolution, but a top notch binocular would be twice that good. So, I can believe they aren't phase coated.

People say they're tough, OK, that's their main claim I guess. But, don't you think the axle looks kind of puny?

Oh well. I have to wonder about Docter roofs. Their top ED model fared OK for the price in the recent Binomania 8x42 blowout review, not great. But if my 15x60 is any indication, their PORROS are as good as it gets.
Ron

Ron, Thanks for posting the link to the EDF spec sheet. I saw that a couple weeks ago when I started researching these binoculars after I saw them for sale online, and I thought I had bookmarked it, but couldn't find it (that's because I downloaded the pdf file!).

I remember seeing the 6 arcsec resolution spec and thinking that was too low and also the 5 arcsec for the 10x42. According to Stephen Ingraham, the 10x42 SE I just bought has a resolution of 3.56 arcsec. So the Docter 10x42 EDF is far behind and yet they are asking $1,295 for it!

Granted the build quality would survive an Indiana Jones adventure but Indiana might not survive if he couldn't see his arch-enemy Rene Belloq's henchmen hiding in the shadows even with the EDF's big 6mm exit pupil due to its under par resolution!

I'm not sure how well using the aforementioned "half the exit pupil technique" works, but at this price point, roofs should have phase coatings so you don't have to position your eyes to get the sharpest and brightest view.

Brock

[Star Farmer]

Originally Posted by gwsudiro

....I wonder if you have the "religious" 15x60 BGAT porro as well ???

....
best regards
Galih

I have an older pair of the 15x60 porros. It says Carl Zeiss on the left and "Made in Germany" on the focussing wheel.

In bright daylight, the resolution is comparable to the 10x42, but the contrast is much inferior. This is probably due to the older coatings. Haven't compared it at night. Again, not a fair comparison as we are talking about a very old specimen against their newest offering.

One more comment on the EDF. Ease of use is its strength. Put it up to your eyes and all the image detail is right there. The 7x42 Dialyt is very easy to use, but you still have to play with it a bit to get the same information that the EDF presents in an instant. The significant contrast and depth of field makes a difference. For hunting and military use, quick information is the key and that's what the EDF is designed for. And yes, that's one pair of binoculars that I don't mind kids playing with. It's that tough.

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by Star Farmer

I have an older pair of the 15x60 porros. It says Carl Zeiss on the left and "Made in Germany" on the focussing wheel.

In bright daylight, the resolution is comparable to the 10x42, but the contrast is much inferior. This is probably due to the older coatings. Haven't compared it at night. Again, not a fair comparison as we are talking about a very old specimen against their newest offering.

One more comment on the EDF. Ease of use is its strength. Put it up to your eyes and all the image detail is right there. The 7x42 Dialyt is very easy to use, but you still have to play with it a bit to get the same information that the EDF presents in an instant. The significant contrast and depth of field makes a difference. For hunting and military use, quick information is the key and that's what the EDF is designed for. And yes, that's one pair of binoculars that I don't mind kids playing with. It's that tough.

Star Farmer,

Just make sure your kids aren't wearing sandals when they play with them, two pounds on a small toe could take a nail off!

I hear you on the "ease of view" with the 7x42. I felt that way about the ZR 7x36 ED2. Maybe "3" will be the "charm".

For some inexplicable reason, I became fascinated by the EDFs though even if they had phase coatings and the latest prism reflective coatings, they wouldn't be very practical for birding. But they would be excellent for wildlife observation.

Unfortunately, I'm turned off by the 6 SOA resolution. I'm not sure what the measured resolution of the 7x36 ED2 is, but it's got to be better since it's very sharp and "clean" in the centerfield.

Brock

[Star Farmer]

Originally Posted by brocknroller

Star Farmer,

.....Unfortunately, I'm turned off by the 6 SOA resolution. ....

Brock

Very understandable Brock. That's the key criteria I look for when dealing with astronomical telescopes.

Photographers pay more attention to contrast. That's what makes the highlights of their pictures stand out.

I am inclined to think that contrast has immediate appeal in binocular viewing. It gives immediacy to the overall picture, and greatly helps the acquisition of the target subject. That's probably the reason for my slight preference of the EDF over the Dialyt for general use.

[gwsudiro]

Originally Posted by ronh

Note the specification of resolution, which I take to mean what we call "magnification boosted resolution", removing the acuity of the eye from the measurement. Not many binoculars guarantee resolution, and it seems odd that what this one is guaranteeing is in fact rather poor: 6 arcsec for the 7x40, 5 arcsec for the 10x42. Admittedly, this guarantee is for the worst permitted resolution, but a top notch binocular would be twice that good. So, I can believe they aren't phase coated.


Ron

I've read that and foolishly ignored it....I'm not into arcsecond to begin with.. I have to pay more attention about it...

thanks for the explanation mr.Harper..!

[gwsudiro]

Originally Posted by Star Farmer

Very understandable Brock. That's the key criteria I look for when dealing with astronomical telescopes.

Photographers pay more attention to contrast. That's what makes the highlights of their pictures stand out.

I am inclined to think that contrast has immediate appeal in binocular viewing. It gives immediacy to the overall picture, and greatly helps the acquisition of the target subject. That's probably the reason for my slight preference of the EDF over the Dialyt for general use.

hi Starfarmer, hi Brock..

nah, back to my previous discussion (in Leica thread) with Brock, why warmer hue can add contrast?
is that bacause our eyes more sensitive to red spectrum?

best regards
Galih

[Star Farmer]

Longer wavelengths of light are absorbed. Shorter wavelengths are scattered. That's the bluish overcast you see especially in high moisture weather. The yellow tint filters out the scattered shorter wavelength photons.

[gwsudiro]

Originally Posted by Star Farmer

Longer wavelengths of light are absorbed. Shorter wavelengths are scattered. That's the bluish overcast you see especially in high moisture weather. The yellow tint filters out the scattered shorter wavelength photons.

so, its like the "blue sky" mechanism right ?

and, thats why sunglasses with warmer color tone often recommended for high glare situation (like in bright daylight) "to cuts the glare"..because sunlight glare consists of scattered blue spectrum light, right ?

and thats why Steiner Safari binos have such coating to reduce glare, they said...

I get it now, thank you Starfarmer!

Galih