[Tom W W]

Hi

I have been trying to decide if we have marsh tits or willow tits or both in our garden.

I'm fairly sure that we have marsh tits. But are these Willow tits?

Comments from anyone with an informed opinion would be very welcome. Come to that uninformed guesses would be welcome to

These two both are very difficult to photograph, they come and go within less than a second, quite literally

[TerryL]

i come in to the latter category so dont take this as confirmation but it looks more like a willow tit to me as appears quite thickset , personally i i.d them on the shape of the black on nape of neck at the back , as the willow tit is thicker necked this makes the black on nape a different shape to the marsh.

[ben_lewis]

I'd be in the Marsh camp on these ones, but from other threads on this subject it is not easy to tell from photos. The best way by far is their call, so next time you see them try to hear them, if they go 'per chu' like a small sneeze they are Marsh tits, if however they have quite a strong persshhaaaay call they are willow tits. A lot of the features shown in field guides are very variable ie the wing pane and throat patch, so call is a good back up.

Ps bird 2 is quite interesting with the pale supercilium, never seen anything like that before unless it is a photographic artifact?

[Muddy Turnstone]

Originally Posted by ben_lewis

I'd be in the Marsh camp on these ones, but from other threads on this subject it is not easy to tell from photos. The best way by far is their call, so next time you see them try to hear them, if they go 'per chu' like a small sneeze they are Marsh tits, if however they have quite a strong persshhaaaay call they are willow tits. A lot of the features shown in field guides are very variable ie the wing pane and throat patch, so call is a good back up.

Ps bird 2 is quite interesting with the pale supercilium, never seen anything like that before unless it is a photographic artifact?

I think that's the sun shining in between the branches.

And, I'm also putting in a vote for Marsh Tit!

/Rasmus

[tigertom]

often difficult to tell these two apart and as allreddy stated the call is a very good clue of ID but as it is more likely to get marsh tits at garden feeders than willow tits plus smallish looking bib I would go with the marsh tit on this one, but I would say it is still more of a guess than any thing else,
MIKE

[Kieren Allinson]

They are both marsh tits for the following reasons:

-Uniformly brown wings without pale panel
-Small black throat patch / bib
-pale brownish 'sullied' rear cheek, (larger white cheek on Willow)

cheers, Kieren

[Tom W W]

Thanks everyone, I read that a white spot on the bill was well over 90% indication of a marsh tit, and there is no white spot but the general build is slender and the bib makes it look like a marsh tit.

There is a pale panel showing in some of the other photo's. But I think I have heard the willow tit call in the past. Our garden is next to an area of marsh, so not really Marsh tit country.

And some are smooth and smart looking, but some are quite rough not so dark in the head.

In other words, I'm still confused.

PS Ben, that is just a patch of sunlight on the head.

[Tom W W]

Looking through my hard disk

Here is a shot showing the light wing pannel, and the generally heavy build and matt look to the head.

[Tideliner]

Marsh tit photos. look at the white lips of the bill , they are very obvious. The pale pannel on the last bird is a trick of the light on the feather edge as it flutters its wings.

[John B (not the sloop)]

I'd vote for Marsh on the strength of the "grubby" grey cheeks. I'd expect a uniform creamy white extending all the way back to the nape on a Willow Tit.

Though they may actually be grubby of course......

[Kieren Allinson]

Originally Posted by Tideliner

Marsh tit photos. look at the white lips of the bill , they are very obvious. The pale pannel on the last bird is a trick of the light on the feather edge as it flutters its wings.

Agreed. Obvious pale cutting edge to mandibles is another pro-marsh feature. Marsh can show a weak wing panel due to pale-edged secondary feathers and this feature in the third photo is within normal variation for marsh tit. Two-toned cheek pattern of marsh is also shown in the third photo. Willow would have a larger whiter cheek and a more bull-necked appearance.

[Tom W W]

Looks like we have Marsh tits then :-)

Thanks for the advice everyone.